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Old 05-06-2014, 10:21 PM   #1
Wind
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Default Clutch/flywheel/pressure plate questions with Getrag 265

Trying to get a feel for which direction to go with the transmission setup. I'm going from automatic...so I don't have a flat or a dished flywheel. Which one should I get? I'm not really worried about holding all that much power, the car's NA right now but I don't mind dealing with a heavy clutch for a bit if it means I won't have to replace it once the turbo's in.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of the flat vs dished setup? Seems like maybe you could get more surface area with a dished flywheel?

There's also the matter of the weight of the flywheel, do I want a lighter flywheel? I understand some of the advantages, but what do you loose?

All of this is for a b230 with LH 2.4 so i'll need to have the teeth for the timing sensor.
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Old 05-06-2014, 11:55 PM   #2
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I used a flat flywheel on my conversion. It is much lighter than the dished. Since you are using LH 2.4 you might be stuck with the dished stuff. I would just convert to a stand alone EFI and use a flat flywheel.
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Old 05-06-2014, 11:58 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by 242Bleek View Post
I used a flat flywheel on my conversion. It is much lighter than the dished. Since you are using LH 2.4 you might be stuck with the dished stuff. I would just convert to a stand alone EFI and use a flat flywheel.
To be honest I've been thinking a lot about rigging up megasquirt anyway. I'm already doing my own from-scratch wiring for all of the non-ems parts of the car
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Old 05-07-2014, 12:14 AM   #4
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Many options abound and depend on budget. And even clutch choice.

If staying LH 2.4, you can source the older style flat flywheel and use the tone ring from your auto's pressure plate. Some fabrication required. Pro, lighter, and the flat wheel is less likely to shatter if and or when you get up to much higher power levels. Cons, you have to figure out a way to attach the tone ring and make sure the sensor lines up properly.
Or, Get the later Dished flywheel with the tone ring built in and be done. Pro, easy and works. Con, they have a reputation of breaking at higher HP levels with heavy clutches.

Another option, is a modified flat flywheel with the tone ring machined out, and RSI used to do this, and probably still does have them. Pro, it works well. Con, costs more.

4th option, is a steel flywheel, But I cannot remember the source off hand and I remember, they are somewhat costly. Pro, They work, and are very strong, Con, cost even more than the RSI version.

If you do plan to MS your car asap, and can wait till that is done, then flat flywheel, un-modded would be the cost effective choice that can handle most TB members cars.

There are more choices, but this will help you get started.


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Old 05-07-2014, 12:20 AM   #5
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You should buy Hockey930's setup and never worry about it again.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:02 PM   #6
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Find Anthony Hyde's writeup on the subject....he has both old school B21/B23 flat flywheels modified for 9.5" / 240mm pressure plates.

He also discusses machining of the dogdish LH2.4 for larger clutches / reduced inertia.

Google FTW.....seek and ye shall find.
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Old 05-09-2014, 09:26 PM   #7
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Here's a link to the Anthony Hyde article, just for reference's sake.

http://people.physics.anu.edu.au/~am...ch_upgrade.htm
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Old 05-09-2014, 09:32 PM   #8
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77volvo245 was selling flat LH2.4 flywheels. I just sold the one from my wrecked 245.

The advantages are that it will rev up faster (T=I*Alpha), but will also rev down faster. I found both of these characteristics to be of benefit...

I was running the Sachs Non-intercooled turbo clutch kit. This has a similar empirical power capacity to the m47 (200whp/200ft-lbs).
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Old 05-09-2014, 09:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fast242 View Post
4th option, is a steel flywheel, But I cannot remember the source off hand and I remember, they are somewhat costly. Pro, They work, and are very strong, Con, cost even more than the RSI version.




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Sorry but you have been misinformed. The steel ones cost LESS that the hacked up, sharp endges left everywhere, can't be troubled to run a tap thru the rusty bolt holes modded cast iron flywheels.
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Old 05-09-2014, 09:41 PM   #10
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OP, speak with people who have gone the getrag route, and who are honest. The most common thing I hear is "I wopuld not do that again"..
Horrible horrible gear ratios for anything but typical German conditions (ie start at home in small city, putter to the Autobahn then floor it all day..).Hence a schizophrenic choice of box and axle ratios...INSANELY short 'suitable for a low powered pick-up granny low in the box and sky-high back axle with 2.86 or 3.08 maybe

Combine that box with a 3.36 axle and you'll have a 4 speed with a "load it on the trainer" first gear...

Terrible box for USA conditions.. And obscenely expensive internals should you ever need to fix the chronic maladies.

Definately not the box for a motor that makes any torque because then the lower gears feel even lower.. Sub-granny-low?
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Old 05-09-2014, 09:50 PM   #11
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I have a getrag. I have negative and positive feed back.
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Old 05-10-2014, 09:35 AM   #12
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I also have a Getrag and I don't like it that much... Terribly noisy, leaks oil like crazy even tough I changed all the seals. First gear is indeed a joke, at least for my car. My car was also automatic when I bought it but the complete Getrag swap kit came with it, just waiting to be installed. I would certainly consider another option, T5 or T56, if I was to do it again and if my Getrag dies I'm not putting another one in there.
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Old 05-10-2014, 01:02 PM   #13
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Here's what's true: The Getrag 265 is not an upgrade over Volvo M-46 as far as gear ratios go.

Here's also what's true: The Getrag 265 gear ratios are not a downgrade compared to a M46 either.

The ratios between those two transmisisons are pretty close to one another. The Getrag 265 i've had in service for the past 10 years or so and which has been behind various redblock engines i've had has also been subjected to engine torgue around 400 lb fts and it has lived. It has suffered through several karate-shifts and general hooliganism and it has lived. The Volvo M-45, M-46 or M-47 would not go through that for any lenght of time.

It's not an elegant or silent transmission, and the BMW variety of it is not a racing gearbox if you look at the ratios as John points out, but it is a suprisingly strong and durable transmisison.

The downside of the Getrag 265 is that they stopped making them in the 1980s. Last BMW to use one is from 1985, so that makes the newest ones nearly 30 years old. There are better and newer transmissions available, no doubt. The one i've had has done everything i've asked it to do, and it's still in use.

The upside is that it comes with a detachable bellhousing, and can thus be easily adapted to a redblock engine without any welding required on the bellhousing.

As to the original question of what clutch to use with a Getrag 265 transmisison (from a BMW, i assume): that depends.

If you already have the stock LH2.4 dished flywheel you can use a stronger pressure plate for that flywheel and a clutch disc from a BMW. KL Racing in Sweden sells these pressure plates. Can't help you with the disc of the top of my head, but a stock BMW 228mm disc with the correct spline does exist.

If you have a flat flywheel you can pretty much use which ever pressure plate meant for a flat flywheel you want (for examble a BMW M3 pressure plate), but that requires that the flywheel is modified for the plate. The stock clutch size for a stock Volvo flat flywheel is 215 mm. There is a stock BMW clutch disc with the correct splines in that size as well, but upgraded Volvo 215mm pressure plates are difficult to come by these days. Also, the stock flat one does not have the LH 2.4 trigger holes, if you need those.

One US Based vendor for steel flywheels was already mentioned in this thread. Pretty sure he can supply a clutch kit as well.

TTV Racing in United Kingdom sells steel ones for redblocks as well. They have the needed info for BMW pressure plates as well. Two Sachs race Engineering pressure plates to consider are the E30 M3 Sachs upgraded pressure plate and E34 M5 Sachs upgraded pressure plate. KL Racing sells these too. Couple that with a BMW disc and you're set. M3 is for a 228 mm disc and M5 is for a 240 mm disc.

An upgraded Sachs M5 pressure plate is a monster as far as torque capacity goes. You'll not likely exceed that. I think it was around 520 Lb Fts with an organic disc. The M3 version is good for at least 330 lb Fts.

An iron flywheel, lots of power and high rpms are a questionable combination. A steel flywheel is a cheap insurance and opens up a lot of options on clutches, at least if you have the possibility to order the flywheel with the desired pressure plate spesification (dowels and bolt patterns and possible steps on the surface). That's the way i would suggest to go. This comes with the benefit of lightness, which is what you want in a sports car (like in a volvo ).

If a budget solution is needed use these: Stock Volvo LH 2.4 stepped flywheel, upgraded pressure plate from KL Racing and find out the correct BMW 228 clutch disc, or have a puck clutch in that size made (i think Cluthnet can do special discs for a reasonable price). Downsides to a steel one are probably less torque capacity and the fact that the flywheel is heavy, and weight is exactly in the wrong place: at the outer perimeter. Even more budget-oriented version would be a stock stepped LH2.4 flywheel, stock Volvo 740 turbo pressure plate and a 228mm BMW clutch disc.
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Last edited by Wagner; 05-11-2014 at 03:48 AM..
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Old 05-10-2014, 01:24 PM   #14
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Janne, good write up, as always. I lurv you...In a good way!! not like all the Swedes
(is it time for "Meanwhile in Sweden" again?)

The BMW pressure plate that is really good costs over USD500 and that's not a Turdpoatpricks friendly price when you think about that.. I did make 4 or so steel flywheels for the Norwegian boys and that is the absolute limit on bolt circle...

So over here---and for a number of boys over there too, there are less expensive options....the Kennedy 228mm being my favorite because 25+ years using their stuff so I know they're committed to making good stuff.
And a big plus is once on that VW 228 bolt circle you have many choices: stock, stages 1 thru 4, and under USD250..
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Old 05-10-2014, 01:34 PM   #15
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I agree with Wagner. They are noisy and you keep thinking thats its something to find out its still the transmission. First gear is a bloody joke but the trans will hold the power. My next trans will be a T5 for sure.
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Old 05-22-2014, 12:48 AM   #16
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Sounds like I need to use a stage 1 228mm clutch setup with a flat steel flywheel for best results at this moment. Can I make it work with Lh 2.4 is my only concern?

I am concerned about the difficulty of rebuilding and replacing parts with the Getrag, but for the moment I am satisfied to put anything with gears I can shift in the car. I've already got the transmission so It's a getting late to jump ship to the T5 camp. Plus the 'hard to break' reputation seems like a good idea for me...

I will admit that I don't know my stuff when it comes to gear ratios and gearing in general. I'm not even sure what rear end is in the car...I know it's off a '93 240 wagon so I assume it's the higher ratio.

I've got a much better understanding of how this whole process is going to go now though, thank you!
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Old 05-22-2014, 01:15 AM   #17
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Its never to late. The transmission is the cheapest part of the swap.
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Old 05-22-2014, 12:16 PM   #18
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So this tranny will be hilarious in a 122 with 4.30 gears? I sense a change of plans...
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Old 05-22-2014, 01:09 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagner View Post
TTV Racing in United Kingdom sells steel ones for redblocks as well. They have the needed info for BMW pressure plates as well. Two Sachs race Engineering pressure plates to consider are the E30 M3 Sachs upgraded pressure plate and E34 M5 Sachs upgraded pressure plate. KL Racing sells these too. Couple that with a BMW disc and you're set. M3 is for a 228 mm disc and M5 is for a 240 mm disc.
Do you know anyone that has used the BMW PP? I thought bellhousing to PP clearance was an issue? If not, I know a local that needs to get some parts together ;)

If the BMW 240mm PP fits, that would be the way to go. Even a non M5 version can hold a lot of power with a 6 puck clutch, and low pedal effort to boot. It's also much easier to source than the SAAB 240mm PP.

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So this tranny will be hilarious in a 122 with 4.30 gears? I sense a change of plans...
Really depends on the Getrag, but yea, most were made to use with high 2/low 3.x:1 axle ratios. Some of the dog leg ones had none, or almost no overdrive.
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Old 06-23-2014, 03:16 AM   #20
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I've been doing a lot of thinking about this, and I'm wavering...might go the T5 route after all, I don't think I ever gave it fair consideration at least.

For the meanwhile I'm going to put an m47 in the car, not making anything but stock N/A power and i'll be be doing one swap or the other before any more power.
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Old 06-28-2014, 07:21 PM   #21
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TTV sells a b230 flat flywheel drilled for the BMW M5 pressure plate.
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