home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-18-2013, 03:46 PM   #1
architectom
Board Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Stonington, CT
Default 2 turbos? Sequential turbo- looking for advice

Has anyone had specific experience with sequential turbos, on a b23/230- my build is a B23, and I'm interested in going in this direction: I'm not turbo expert but I have a friend who builds v8 twin turbo set-ups helping with the planning; hoping to learn from other's experience with set-up and sizing both turbos. Maybe some insight on recycling a porsche, subaru, or mazda setup?
architectom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 03:54 PM   #2
fivealive
Board Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Default

.

Last edited by fivealive; 04-17-2017 at 12:16 AM..
fivealive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 04:10 PM   #3
architectom
Board Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Stonington, CT
Default

See! A "stupid" question is never only asked once- I'll stick to a couple of engineering minds and some experience rather than the internet, and get back to you if we can make it work.
architectom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 04:21 PM   #4
fivealive
Board Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Default

.

Last edited by fivealive; 04-17-2017 at 12:17 AM..
fivealive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 04:47 PM   #5
architectom
Board Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Stonington, CT
Default

The Rx-7 twin turbo is probably the one that intrigues me most:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MAZDA-RX7-RX...48f1af&vxp=mtr
it appears that turbo manifold could be re-cycled, with an adapter plate, and that any number of turbo pairs could be mounted to it. This reduces the menagerie of plumbing involved above.
architectom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 04:56 PM   #6
fivealive
Board Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Default

.

Last edited by fivealive; 04-17-2017 at 12:17 AM..
fivealive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 05:12 PM   #7
architectom
Board Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Stonington, CT
Default

^ the welding is not a problem- it's just so messy- Saab has a better resolved set-up which is on the 9-3 1.9 engines, I assume one of those would be harder to come-across, but then I do know the owner of a former dealership. Not to be brash, but look at the maze on that b230 vs. the well resolved, and compact design of the turbos on the late model motor.
architectom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 05:21 PM   #8
Onetrillionrpm
Board Member
 
Onetrillionrpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Il
Default

that build is great!
__________________
1 fast Mitsubishi
1 slow Volvo
A few hondas.

Last edited by Onetrillionrpm; 07-18-2013 at 05:26 PM..
Onetrillionrpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 06:47 PM   #9
doucheNozzle
Newbie
 
doucheNozzle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Pitt, 15147
Default

I think the better question is what are you trying to accomplish?

The twin turbo setup from the T6 was two same sized turbos. A twin-turbo RX7 is a compound setup.
__________________

'99 V70 NAA - So Slow
'04 V70 T5A - Feels Fast
doucheNozzle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 07:01 PM   #10
Mueller
Board Member
 
Mueller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Antioch, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by architectom View Post
See! A "stupid" question is never only asked once- I'll stick to a couple of engineering minds and some experience rather than the internet, and get back to you if we can make it work.
Sounds like you are giving up already
__________________
.........
Mueller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 07:19 PM   #11
Onetrillionrpm
Board Member
 
Onetrillionrpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Il
Default

what about a nice twin scroll setup?
Onetrillionrpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 08:01 PM   #12
jpbturbo
Mens Classic Fit Polo
 
jpbturbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong #28604
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by architectom View Post
Has anyone had specific experience with sequential turbos, on a b23/230- my build is a B23, and I'm interested in going in this direction: I'm not turbo expert but I have a friend who builds v8 twin turbo set-ups helping with the planning; hoping to learn from other's experience with set-up and sizing both turbos. Maybe some insight on recycling a porsche, subaru, or mazda setup?
I'd be willing to bet one dollar($1 USD) that your friend does not build sequential twin turbo V8's.
More likely that they are a parallel setup with one turbo for each side of the V8.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fivealive View Post
Wow that is weird. I'm not a fan of that exhaust flange (three studs in pretty weird places), and with two 13B's (fairly small turbos) I'm not sure you'd be doing yourself much good over just a regular 15g, 16t, 18t, or other relatively common Volvo turbo.

By the time you upgraded the turbos on that thing, you would have been better off just taking a basic welding class at the community college and building your own mild steel exhaust manifold and downpipes.

You can get exhaust flanges for volvo engines at http://r-sport.org so you don't have to make those, and then just weld it up.
13B is the Mazda engine that setup was attached to, not the turbo type.
Stock turbos on a 13B-REW would be Hitachi HT-12.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doucheNozzle View Post
I think the better question is what are you trying to accomplish?

The twin turbo setup from the T6 was two same sized turbos. A twin-turbo RX7 is a compound setup.
But they were still the same size, as mentioned above they were both Hitachi HT-12's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onetrillionrpm View Post
what about a nice twin scroll setup?
What about almost anything besides a sequential setup?

I don't see what's appealing about having to pay for twice as much of everything when a good modern ball bearing turbo is going to be easier to install and control.

When I lived in orlando the only people who had FD RX7's that still had the twin turbo setup were those that didn't have the money to upgrade or had no interest in really going fast.

All that being said I have a thread buried somewhere in the for sale forum where I'm selling a pair of the turbos off of an S80 T6.
__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Athlon
My kia is best kia appliance so cheap.. Oh ****
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac
Ur A LIAR u dident maek 28 psi BOOURNZ!
jpbturbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 09:32 PM   #13
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by architectom View Post
The Rx-7 twin turbo is probably the one that intrigues me most:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MAZDA-RX7-RX...48f1af&vxp=mtr
it appears that turbo manifold could be re-cycled, with an adapter plate, and that any number of turbo pairs could be mounted to it. This reduces the menagerie of plumbing involved above.

Except the full engineering resources of Mazda: Revenue Increase ¥2.3 trillion (FY 2011)[1]
Operating income Increase ¥23.8 billion (FY 2011)[1]
Net income Decrease ¥-60 billion (FY 2011)[1]
Employees 38,987 (as of March 31, 2011)

could not manage to make them work worth a damn.

It is sacrilege to dare to ask but screw it I'll ask:

What is the current correctly sized single turbo major faults that can only be solved by undertaking something that a company with just a bit more resources could not manage to make work?
Or, is this like the previous 247 times people got excited about twin, triple, quad and more turbos, really just fap fap fap fap fap fap ?

Note: in real life I have looked over the three twin turbos manifolds in a pile at my friend's shop, and first thing interesting was the turbine housing were cast in, both...That means that's the turbo you must use. rhe second thing was the more than 15 bds big nasty cracks running all thru them...
Mazda had a better idea, evidently..
__________________
John Vanlandingham/JVAB Imports
Sleezattle WA, USA

--> CALL (206) 431-9696<----

www.rallyrace.net/jvab

www.rallyanarchy.com

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

"When a man tells you that he got rich through hard work, ask him: 'Whose?'"
— Don Marquis
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 09:49 PM   #14
RoadRacer4Life
Owner: DeathWagon
 
RoadRacer4Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Montgomery Alabama
Default

The mazda FD twin setup was actually very good it just could not hold up to the extreme EGT's that the rotary engine produces.. On a standard piston engine it might be fine.. The HT-12 turbos were not very good turbos honestly but there are options for bolt in upgrades.. www.bnrturbos.com

The twin setup on the supra was very good actually the only complaint was when you turned the boost up the surge of the second turbo coming online was much more noticeable but considering Toyota never intended the boost to run above that range its hard to complain..

I prefer the simplicity of a single turbo setup.. We want it all fast spool and great top end but its all about finding a compromise and honestly most of us will be happy with a slightly upgraded t3 60/63..

-Sam
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxman51 View Post
Threads like this continue to underline the fact that none of yall are ever actually going to catch me.
90 245GL Build thread 2JZ coming soon...
91 245GL Dumpin Doughnuts Battle Wagon Chumpcar
93 245GL Street Beater
RoadRacer4Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 10:59 PM   #15
JohnLane
Board Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Northern Washington
Default

When one can make things very amusing indeed with one properly sized turbo for the power goal.......

Why go out of your way to create expensive scrap?

Accept that the turbo sized for XXX power will wake up at YYYY. Program the EMS right and drive accordingly when you wish to be a savage.

The Big turbo in the rallycar makes the three disc clutch slip on engagement....
__________________
Overkill is consistently more fun.
JohnLane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 11:18 PM   #16
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadRacer4Life View Post
The mazda FD twin setup was actually very good it just could not hold up to the extreme EGT's that the rotary engine produces.. On a standard piston engine it might be fine.. The HT-12 turbos were not very good turbos honestly but there are options for bolt in upgrades.. www.bnrturbos.com

The twin setup on the supra was very good actually the only complaint was when you turned the boost up the surge of the second turbo coming online was much more noticeable but considering Toyota never intended the boost to run above that range its hard to complain..

I prefer the simplicity of a single turbo setup.. We want it all fast spool and great top end but its all about finding a compromise and honestly most of us will be happy with a slightly upgraded t3 60/63..

-Sam
Not trying to start a big argument---since this is major wank-fest thread in it's inception and no point anybody getting butt-hurt over pointless keyboard wanking, but curious: You are telling us about the "very good" twin turbo set ups from your own ownership and mods of those two cars? Or a close friend who had and ran them?

And since even n.a. Mazda make a LOT of heat--and Mazda knows this, and the single turbo things made a LOT more lotta heat, it seeeeeeeeems to me that the fact that they constantly suffered multiple cracks in the elaborate cast iron manifold cum turbine housing morphodite thang, constantly melted the PLASTIC blue solenoid POS change-over thang---located behind the exhaust manifold (Good thinking there Kejiburchi!) constantly melted junk because they were (duh) HOT----how can that be considered "actually very good"?
These are things I watch 3 very sharp guys fight.

And Supra, one good friend in Hong Kong said "That stuff never worked worth a damn, happiest day owning the car was when we threw that junk away and mounted one nice turbo...." Runs a nice hot-rod shop, no fool.

Why would these owners say these things?

I am confuse.
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 11:29 PM   #17
JohnLane
Board Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Northern Washington
Default

Oh come on..... Tell us how you really feel.
JohnLane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 11:40 PM   #18
centason
CNT-FAI
 
centason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ft.Mill, SC
Default

I will agree with John here, being an old Toyota guy here, the twin Supra turbo setup was a nightmare. Sickening from the single CT26 setup of the 7M torque monster. All they really had to do with the JZ motor, was cam lobe changes, change the damn confounded air meter, and a small end T-04 setup, 320hp would be non existent. Those engines should have been 420hp stock. Compound turbo is an art. You can't just twin a car and hope to God it works. Nissan did a good job with the 300zx. The FC3s twins were a disgrace, period. Buick did a good job with the GN. I have only seen one compound turbo system work on a car that was perfect. It was on a ricer based LS Acura. Ran flat 10s, bit that's only in a straight line.
__________________
Member: TBCCS
"Democracy is also a form of worship. It is the worship of Jackals by Jackasses." -H. L. Mencken
Quote:
Originally Posted by 240240 View Post
Yes, but I keep having the dream of shoving the Cocaine up my ass!
Quote:
Originally Posted by golgothan View Post
Ohh god no, I'd rather eat hot diarrhea than drive a 7/9
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFridge View Post
You sons of bitches are the biggest thread de-railers in forum history.
Any forums history.
centason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 11:56 PM   #19
badvlvo
Bad for Babies
 
badvlvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by centason View Post
I will agree with John here, being an old Toyota guy here, the twin Supra turbo setup was a nightmare. Sickening from the single CT26 setup of the 7M torque monster. All they really had to do with the JZ motor, was cam lobe changes, change the damn confounded air meter, and a small end T-04 setup, 320hp would be non existent. Those engines should have been 420hp stock. Compound turbo is an art. You can't just twin a car and hope to God it works. Nissan did a good job with the 300zx. The FC3s twins were a disgrace, period. Buick did a good job with the GN. I have only seen one compound turbo system work on a car that was perfect. It was on a ricer based LS Acura. Ran flat 10s, bit that's only in a straight line.
You are all over the place here. 300zx was a compound? GN's?
While I can agree with John I don't think what you are saying here is what he is saying.
badvlvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 12:10 AM   #20
centason
CNT-FAI
 
centason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ft.Mill, SC
Default

The GN was a single turbo masterpiece. 300zx? Ever heard of a VG30DETT? Twin turbo, twin cam 3.0 liter 300zx? I'm speaking of twin design here. Even with a Supra, the compound was minimal. Unless you have sat in and drove said cars, don't speak. Its quite annoying. I have driven or owned said cars I stated. I don't mean to knock on a TB guy here, it's not how I am, but i am using references of great cars as a point of reference. You said nothing of the FC based RX7, which was true twin, why? Enlighten me why you think i am wrong with my references. I really don't like getting upset, i just don't like the "E-Penis" generation too much.
centason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 12:12 AM   #21
doucheNozzle
Newbie
 
doucheNozzle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Pitt, 15147
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by centason View Post
The GN was a single turbo masterpiece. 300zx? Ever heard of a VG30DETT? Twin turbo, twin cam 3.0 liter 300zx? I'm speaking of twin design here. Even with a Supra, the compound was minimal. Unless you have sat in and drove said cars, don't speak. Its quite annoying. I have driven or owned said cars I stated. I don't mean to knock on a TB guy here, it's not how I am, but i am using references of great cars as a point of reference. You said nothing of the FC based RX7, which was true twin, why? Enlighten me why you think i am wrong with my references. I really don't like getting upset, i just don't like the "E-Penis" generation too much.
300zx is not a compound setup. Eric was clarifying. Put your e-penis back into your pants.

Also, I've sat in and drove a 300ZX. Can I play?
doucheNozzle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 12:30 AM   #22
badvlvo
Bad for Babies
 
badvlvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: USA
Default

Actually what I was saying is that the post was entirely gibberish, you couldn't distinguish what car was simply a twin turbo or compound, or even which was a single.

The FC was a sequential turbo, calling it a twin is a misnomer. It was also an unreliable piece of crap that looked cool (for it's time) and handled well (rode like ****).

The 300zx would be what you are thinking of as a twin turbo.

How is the compound on a Supra "minimal?" It is either a compound or it is not.

Twin turbo Z? Driven a couple, not impressed. Turbo Supra, driven that too. Nice car, not worth the money. FC RX7, driven, raced and wrecked.

I own a ****ing GNX, I think I know a little about those, and last time I looked it only had one turbo. Want to buy it? Maybe you can install twin sequential single turbos on it.
badvlvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 12:30 AM   #23
centason
CNT-FAI
 
centason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ft.Mill, SC
Default

Neither was the GN, it was single. I was using great cars as a reference. How are you going to get the scavenging correct on 2 cylinders for a b230 without CAD and a ton of math. Then, you have to go into manifold setup, that will need the correct exhaust velocity and speed to spool the turbo at the correct time. Plus needing two differently sized turbos to do the job. Using a twin Supra setup would be ideal for the Volvo, but you have to do the math and get the correct manifolds fabbed up. I'm just using references, that's all. I'm tucked away fine btw. I've built just a "few" different cars in my lifetime. I refuse to get in a pissing match over what I said. I'll be sure I make sure I critique my writing from here on out
centason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 12:37 AM   #24
centason
CNT-FAI
 
centason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ft.Mill, SC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by badvlvo View Post
Actually what I was saying is that the post was entirely gibberish, you couldn't distinguish what car was simply a twin turbo or compound, or even which was a single.

The FC was a sequential turbo, calling it a twin is a misnomer. It was also an unreliable piece of crap that looked cool (for it's time) and handled well (rode like ****).

The 300zx would be what you are thinking of as a twin turbo.

How is the compound on a Supra "minimal?" It is either a compound or it is not.

Twin turbo Z? Driven a couple, not impressed. Turbo Supra, driven that too. Nice car, not worth the money. FC RX7, driven, raced and wrecked.

I own a ****ing GNX, I think I know a little about those, and last time I looked it only had one turbo. Want to buy it? Maybe you can install twin sequential single turbos on it.
Just making references to great cars, that's all. I know he wants to run compound turbos. Just references, and all the work it took to make them great. Look at your GN, its great. No one could have made that engine and setup better than Buick, right? I'm just speaking. That's all.
centason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 12:37 AM   #25
badvlvo
Bad for Babies
 
badvlvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by centason View Post
Neither was the GN, it was single. I was using great cars as a reference. How are you going to get the scavenging correct on 2 cylinders for a b230 without CAD and a ton of math. Then, you have to go into manifold setup, that will need the correct exhaust velocity and speed to spool the turbo at the correct time. Plus needing two differently sized turbos to do the job. Using a twin Supra setup would be ideal for the Volvo, but you have to do the math and get the correct manifolds fabbed up. I'm just using references, that's all. I'm tucked away fine btw. I've built just a "few" different cars in my lifetime. I refuse to get in a pissing match over what I said. I'll be sure I make sure I critique my writing from here on out
"Neither was the GN"...... Did you read?

How exactly do you come to the conclusion that the Supra setup is superior, "ideal" in your words, to any other option? And how exactly would this reduce the "math" from any other design?
Any way you go with multiple turbos you will have to design and build the necessary components. So the Supra **** is ideal why? Still have to do this "math" of which you speak.

I don't care about your "few" cars, what I care about is real fact. Not talking out your ass "fact," back it up with some real information.

Critique your reading comprehension while you are at it.
badvlvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:46 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.