tfrasca's 142 Turbo Project

FreeEMSFred said:

If it were under tension anything would work provided you didn't put it into yield. But that's under compression.

I'm guessing it'll be okay provided you can lock it with no preload so it's a brace not putting any force on anything in the resting position.

At the end of the day what you're trying to do is take the strain off the studs/bolts in the head with something like 6:1 leverage from the mass of the plenum. For that purpose, it should do fine IMO.

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Yup, it's got zero preload in its resting position. Originally I was thinking of using a jack screw so I could dial in zero preload accurately, but just welding up a bracket seemed to work just fine. Thanks for weighing in. It's off the powder coater this morning.

It's been a bit since I did anything cool to the car. I have been doing stuff, but mostly to make driving it daily more enjoyable. Also, sorry for the ****ty photos. Photobucket just sucks.

The brake booster finally went out, so I got a new one from Hi Performance Auto. It's cool that this part is still available. While the booster bracket was out, I welded up the seam in the bottom, in hopes that it would help keep some noise out of the cabin. It did nothing.



At least the booster looks great and works well.



I bought a brand new T5z in hopes that some of the T5 noises would go away. They did not, but I love the gear ratios in the T5z, and it's nice to have a brand new transmission.



I also took that time to upgrade the clutch to a Yoshifab billete flywheel and a 235mm disc/pressure plate. I had some issues with cable adjustment, and it turned out that the stiffer pressure plate was compressing the rubber grommet at the fire wall. I replaced that grommet with a thick washer and now it's working well. It's a bit stiffer than stock, but it should hold 350+ lb ft and it engages nicely for daily driving.



With some help from friends, I got the new trans and clutch in by 7pm on a Sunday, then Dave and I drove it from SC to LA first thing Monday morning. It worked out. Cruising at 80 mph and 3k rpm is nice. Not having AC in triple digit temps over the Grapevine was not nice. Here's a picture that our friend John took on Highway 2 in the Angeles National Forest.



While we were down in LA, I dropped the car off with Eric and Ian to have them put in a True Trac. This is such a mandatory upgrade. It's super predictable and smooth. With my 4.30 rear end, I can still break the tires loose pretty much whenever I'm below 50 mph, but with the LSD, it's easy to anticipate and control. I forgot to tell them I had a Lube Locker gasket on the diff cover, so I put another one on when I got it home. I also just wanted to see it for myself.



Since my new T5z didn't quiet the drivetrain up, it was time to look at driveline angles. The trans is pointed down a lot, which needs to get addressed. But pointing the axle up a bit would help get all the operating angles closer to each other. So I made my torque rods adjustable with a jack screw and some weld in LH/RH bungs. I lucked out, because I almost made them too long. You can see in the photo, they're basically bottomed out. That got me to a suitable angle at the axle. Interesting thing I had never thought about before: you can't use a split lock washer on LH threads! I took those out and got some spring washers instead. Go figure.





The more appropriate operating angles didn't fix all my driveline vibrations. I have an Aerostar slip yoke with the rubber bonded damper on it, but that won't fit unless I drop my trans down a few more millimeters. And that'll make the front u joint operating angle even worse. I may try it anyway. The ideal solution would be cutting more of the tunnel out so I can raise the trans AND use the yoke, and then also coming up with a custom center support that can be moved. That way I can adjust all the angles. We'll see how motivated I get. I really thought I'd be done with transmission stuff, and on to turbo/microsquirt by now.

Looking good. Can you describe your vibrations? Are they at a specific RPM? Do they happen on accel or decel?

Truthfully, I wouldn't bother with damper if it means you cut the car again. These trans are just flat out noisy, No real getting around it.

Mine buzzes on decel from 2900 rpm to 2500 RPM with properly adjusted angles and an Aerostar dampener.

This is a quality update, with lots of shiny parts! When do I get a ride???

t8fanning said:

Looking good. Can you describe your vibrations? Are they at a specific RPM? Do they happen on accel or decel?

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The vibes are worst in 5th, decel at about 2500 rpm. Apparently the exact same thing Chris has. I also get rattling/vibration in 3rd and 4th at decel at any rpm higher than 3000 rpm. There's obviously the rattle at idle, as well. But I think that could be tuned out with a slightly richer idle once I go MS.

Uncleknucklez said:

Truthfully, I wouldn't bother with damper if it means you cut the car again. These trans are just flat out noisy, No real getting around it.

Mine buzzes on decel from 2900 rpm to 2500 RPM.

This is a quality update, with lots of shiny parts! When do I get a ride???

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I doubt I'll cut the tunnel again just for the damper. Lately I've been having thoughts of trying to find a whiteblock, and starting over entirely. I'm going to try to avoid that, but if any more cutting happens, it'll be for a whiteblock swap.

Sounds like the same rattle I've got in the 140. The Aerostar yoke reduced it a good bit, didn't eliminate it though. Next is trying a different fluid in mine.

Nice update for sure! Definitely with that level of power you gotta have the LSD in there. I couldn't imagine my wagon without it at this point.

gsellstr said:

Sounds like the same rattle I've got in the 140. The Aerostar yoke reduced it a good bit, didn't eliminate it though. Next is trying a different fluid in mine.

Nice update for sure! Definitely with that level of power you gotta have the LSD in there. I couldn't imagine my wagon without it at this point.

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Yeah, I don't know how I was driving it hard without the LSD. Looking forward to doing another rally when time/funds permit.

The fluid thing is frustrating. ATF is so thin, of course it's not going to be super quiet. There's one review for the T5z on Summit about a guy getting fed up with the noise and just running 85/140, knowingly voiding the warranty. He said it quieted things up considerably. I also found something about how ATF was originally spec'd for paper bonded synchros, which have since been replaced by carbon fiber (I think?). And that using gear oil, or something designed to lubricate bearings and gears rather than build hydraulic pressure would be better in a modern T5z.

Fluid:
There are three types of synchro rings in a T-5.

For the NWC the rings are all brass and don't much care what fluid they get, but a NWC needs something a little thicker than ATF for the bearing surfaces of the gears. (The NWC gears don't roll on bearings) By the way, for a Mustang, NWC was only the 1983 and 1984 models. (GM changed in different years)

For a WC T-5 (1985+) they began with composite linings in gears 1-4 and they retained the brass ring for fifth gear throughout production. This composite lining is much like a compressed fiberboard, brownish in color and will tend to dissolve in things like Motor Oil, Gear oil, Synchromesh. Additionally the bond to these linings will break down if used with things like Amsoil. All of these improper fluids I mention take their toll in a T-5 over TIME.

In 1992 the 3-4 rings went to Carbon-Fiber, and in 2011 the 1-2 rings went to Carbon-Fiber. Any rebuild kit after these dates will have the carbon-Fiber lined rings that are affected much less by the perils mentioned above.

So, for a 1995 that perhaps had gear oil put in it I would expect the first and second synchros to become damaged from the fluid. Anything that has had these rings replaced after mid-year 2011 should have the newer Carbon-Fiber rings and might be okay.

WHAT TO DO:
Obviously you should change it now no matter what is in it. Running low on fluid and failing to change the fluid are the two most frequent causes of damage aside from pure abusive driving.

If what comes out is thick, really dark, or smells like gear oil I would change it a couple of times and run it for a few hundred miles between changes until what comes out is the right color.

What to put in? DEX/MERC is the basic fluid. Mercon-V is a synthetic blend of similar specs, Mobil-1 makes a good full-synthetic. i would stick to one of these three. Know that opinions on the best T-5 fluid vary like a person's taste for a good beer...

Avoid exotic fluids with super additives. You don't know just what these additives will do to your synchro ring linings, or the bonding agent for the linings... While others disagree, I'm not at all a fan of the purple stuff. I never like what I see inside a transmission I tear down that has the purple residue.

Hope this helps.

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The only other consistent advice I can find is to try Pennzoil Synchromesh MTL. Someone said that Tremec actually recommended Synchromesh to him for his street/drag car. I'm going to pick some up today.

I talked to Tremec about fluids for my T-5z.
Dexron III is what they reccomend. I have the Valvoline brand in mine.Valvoline.com > Products
You can also use GM synchromesh, or Penzoil brand synchromesh for more severe duty.
The only synthetic that they reccomend is Mobil, which is the only synthetic that they actually have tested.
Follow this link for more information.
https://www.allfordmustangs.com/forum...ng-5-0-lx.html

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Tfrasca said:

The vibes are worst in 5th, decel at about 2500 rpm. Apparently the exact same thing Chris has. I also get rattling/vibration in 3rd and 4th at decel at any rpm higher than 3000 rpm. There's obviously the rattle at idle, as well. But I think that could be tuned out with a slightly richer idle once I go MS.

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I feel your pain. I also have the decel rattle, most noticable for me in 4th at 2500 rpm (annoyingly right where 35-50mph cruise rpm is in 4th). I also have the Aerostar yoke and it helped a little, but I agree with Chris, don't cut the floor just to use the yoke with the transmission raised...even if you did that I doubt the rattling would change much.

FWIW, I added some 40oz jute carpet padding which reduced the idle rattle sound in the cabin.
https://www.albrightssupply.com/Jute-Pad-40-oz-p/jute40.htm

Otherwise, great update and props on clean execution!

I did a ton of digging on fluids for these things a year or so back, found it looks like for an actual Dex/Merc Type 3, the thickest commonly available one is the Red Line High Temp ATF. It seemed to have the highest viscosity of what I was able to find. It definitely did quiet mine down a little, but I'm also curious to see if the Amsoil ATF stays at the same viscosity hot as cold, like their diff stuff is claimed to do. If so, I may give that a shot.

I've heard about Syncromesh being good as well, reviews seemed as mixed on it helping as everything else. I do know, even for my trans from a 95, with the carbon syncro's, they still spec ATF.

Sure would be nice if there was a fix for it, but it is good to know even a brand new trans does the same thing...

oldschoolvolvo said:

I feel your pain. I also have the decel rattle, most noticable for me in 4th at 2500 rpm (annoyingly right where 35-50mph cruise rpm is in 4th). I also have the Aerostar yoke and it helped a little, but I agree with Chris, don't cut the floor just to use the yoke with the transmission raised...even if you did that I doubt the rattling would change much.

FWIW, I added some 40oz jute carpet padding which reduced the idle rattle sound in the cabin.
https://www.albrightssupply.com/Jute-Pad-40-oz-p/jute40.htm

Otherwise, great update and props on clean execution!

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I have 1" Dynamat covering my trans tunnel, and the stock jute plus two layers of carpet on the floors. Obviously that helped with the noise, and now it seems like most of the noise comes in from the firewall. I've tried to apply Dynamat where I can, but to do it effectively, I'd need to pull the dash and do the whole thing. I won't do that unless I find a dirt cheap crack-free dash to install.

One thing I plan to do is install door speakers so I can just drown the noise/my sorrows with the stereo.

gsellstr said:

I did a ton of digging on fluids for these things a year or so back, found it looks like for an actual Dex/Merc Type 3, the thickest commonly available one is the Red Line High Temp ATF. It seemed to have the highest viscosity of what I was able to find. It definitely did quiet mine down a little, but I'm also curious to see if the Amsoil ATF stays at the same viscosity hot as cold, like their diff stuff is claimed to do. If so, I may give that a shot.

I've heard about Syncromesh being good as well, reviews seemed as mixed on it helping as everything else. I do know, even for my trans from a 95, with the carbon syncro's, they still spec ATF.

Sure would be nice if there was a fix for it, but it is good to know even a brand new trans does the same thing...

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But according to that random guy I quoted from the internet, your 95 only had two carbon synchros, and the other two were the older composite bonded kind. He's saying that in 2011, they switched to using all 4 carbon synchros (brass 5th), and that any rebuild kit after that date would have no fiber bonded synchros. The easy thing would be to look at a new WC T5 rebuild kit and see if 1-4th synchros are the same, but I can't really tell from interet browsing. He's saying that if they're all carbon, the disintegrating problem is not really an issue.

Obviously, this is all just based on what one builder is saying, so maybe I;ll try to call Tremec when I get a chance. The thing that appeals to me about the Synchromesh is that it's an MTL, not actually an ATF.

Synchromesh is good stuff man if you've ever driven a c4 Corvette with a zf trans you'll know they are loud as hell, change the fluid in them and put the synchromesh in and it's a night and day difference

This is all making me reminisce about how I got my essentially brand new t5z - by acquiring a project someone was moving on from for many reasons, and one of his main straws was his exasperation chasing some noise out of the gearbox. He spent a LOT of money building a very well thought out car, then sold it quickly at a huge loss (and my benefit).

I put the box in my car, did the butyl and insulation as you've done, a few other steps as you've started working, then accepted the transmission for what it is and the car for what it is. I expect my factory stock XC60 to be rattle free. The completely custom 40-year-old car I built in my garage not so much (and really, it ain't bad. Rough and tumble t5 and all it's hardly any noisier than most other old cars I've had).

Cutting this into the convo not to say you're all chasing your tails and wasting time, but rather that you should do your due dilligence, take some steps to improve the situation, then apply a healthy dose of perspective and move on from it.

Stiggy Pop said:

This is all making me reminisce about how I got my essentially brand new t5z - by acquiring a project someone was moving on from for many reasons, and one of his main straws was his exasperation chasing some noise out of the gearbox. He spent a LOT of money building a very well thought out car, then sold it quickly at a huge loss (and my benefit).

I put the box in my car, did the butyl and insulation as you've done, a few other steps as you've started working, then accepted the transmission for what it is and the car for what it is. I expect my factory stock XC60 to be rattle free. The completely custom 40-year-old car I built in my garage not so much (and really, it ain't bad. Rough and tumble t5 and all it's hardly any noisier than most other old cars I've had).

Cutting this into the convo not to say you're all chasing your tails and wasting time, but rather that you should do your due dilligence, take some steps to improve the situation, then apply a healthy dose of perspective and move on from it.

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I've been chasing that state of mind since I put the engine in, but it's really difficult for me. Everyone says "of course it's got some rattles, it's 50 years old". But a big reason I wanted to put more modern stuff in the car is to make it more...modern. Eventually, I'll have to accept that to have a 300 horsepower 50-year-old Volvo with a redblock, is to have a noisy, temperamental ongoing project. But for now, I'm going to beat my head against a wall.

This is an interesting list of relative viscosities of various MTLs:

A. The four MTL fluids closest to a Kinematic Viscosity of 6.1 (About the same viscosity as a DexronVI) or so are:

1. Castrol Syntrans FE 75W,

2. BMW (Pentosin) MTF-LT-3,

3. Honda MTII or MTF 2.

4. Ford FML-XT-11-QDC


B. The next higher viscosity MTL would be the 7.5 cSt versions (About the same viscosity as a DexronIII)

1. Royal Purple's Synchromax

2. Ravenol MTF-2

3. Honda MTF

4. VW part number G052512A2

5. GM Manual Transmission and Transfer Case Fluid

6. BMW (Pentosin) MTF-LT-1, 2


C. The next higher viscosity MTL would be Castrol Syntrans V FE 75W-80 8.0cSt

D. The next higher viscosity MTL would be BG Synchroshift II 8.2 cSt

E. The next higher viscosity is Mopar Type MS-9417 MTL 9.0cSt

F. The next higher viscosity MTL would be Pennzoil Synchromesh 9.3 cSt




G. The next group of MTL?s are in the 10.x cSt range are:

1. Redline MTL 70W80.

2. Amsoil MTL

3. GM Synchromeshs?

4. Volvo MTF 645

5. Ford Motor Craft XT-M5-QS


H. The next higher viscosity MTL would be:

1. Redline MT-85 ? 12.0 cSt



I. The next higher viscosity MTLs would be:

1. Amsoil MTG 14.5 cSt

2. Redline MT-90 15.6 cSt

3. Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90

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It looks like Pennzoil Synchromesh is a bit thicker than Dexron III, so that's encouraging at least.

That settles it for me, Syncromesh will be going in sooner rather than later.

Out of curiousity, does your throw out bearing touch the PP? Like is there a tiny bit of preload on the bearing?

My car is setup to have that, and I noticed recently at idle with the car in neutral and the clutch released I can hear the TOB whirring away in there and it made me wonder if the TOB is making noise, and transmitting it through the arm and everything else it is attached to.

I doubt that is the silver bullet here, but I was grasping at straws as well.

Stiggy Pop said:

Cutting this into the convo not to say you're all chasing your tails and wasting time, but rather that you should do your due dilligence, take some steps to improve the situation, then apply a healthy dose of perspective and move on from it.

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This is how I deal with it currently. Because Race Car.

Uncleknucklez said:

That settles it for me, Syncromesh will be going in sooner rather than later.

Out of curiousity, does your throw out bearing touch the PP? Like is there a tiny bit of preload on the bearing?

My car is setup to have that, and I noticed recently at idle with the car in neutral and the clutch released I can hear the TOB whirring away in there and it made me wonder if the TOB is making noise, and transmitting it through the arm and everything else it is attached to.

I doubt that is the silver bullet here, but I was grasping at straws as well.



This is how I deal with it currently. Because Race Car.

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No preload on the TOB. There?s about 1/8? gap. Pedal feel is much nicer with no gap, but then the TOB is spinning 100% of the time, when I?m sure it?d rather spin only when the clutch pedal is depressed.

If you want, you can come ride around in my truck for a day. It's damn good at making any other car feel like a rocket and quiet as a rolls royce.

Tfrasca said:

I'll have to accept that to have a 300 horsepower 50-year-old Volvo with a redblock, is to have a noisy, temperamental ongoing project. But for now, I'm going to beat my head against a wall.

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Ehh don't let everyone sell you that line either. I may not be pushing the outer limits but my engine is about as done out as red blocks go and it's a consistently running reliable motor.

I actually was walking into work this morning trying to think of things I could do on the car. I'm finally down to things like upholstery, niceties, I've even... oh god... considered speakers . But certainly nothing saying the project can't settle out just cause it's a redblock.

I did start building my car in 2012 so there's that

Took me 12 years to get to paint, purely by chance. Now I'm finally getting the tune right. Oh, and that's not mentioning the 140 that has the T5 and has been a project for 24 years. lol

Interesting, they left the RL ATF off the list. It was in the 10.x range if memory serves, got it in mine right now. I'm very curious to see what the syncromesh does for you guys though.

FWIW my rebuild kit from Astro was still a mixed bag for fiber vs. not on the syncros.