home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-10-2010, 01:35 PM   #51
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyd View Post
This is quite an interesting thread. Glad I stumbled upon it.
well it's OK except for the truly bizarre beliefs that the little non-positive displacement water pumps make any appreciable pressure...

Cavitation can certainly be a problem on all car water pumps run at consistent high rpm but judicious reduction in blade height can mitigate a good deal of that before the expense of a larger---slow pulley is resorted to.
__________________
John Vanlandingham/JVAB Imports
Sleezattle WA, USA

--> CALL (206) 431-9696<----

www.rallyrace.net/jvab

www.rallyanarchy.com

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

"When a man tells you that he got rich through hard work, ask him: 'Whose?'"
— Don Marquis
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2010, 12:17 AM   #52
wennstroma
Board Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Idaho
Default

Here is another cooling system thread that has some good info/thoughts about higher rpm use.

http://www.forums.turbobricks.com/sh...d.php?t=121189
wennstroma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2010, 01:50 AM   #53
qwkswede
faster than you think
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Denver, CO
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wennstroma View Post
Here is another cooling system thread that has some good info/thoughts about higher rpm use.

http://www.forums.turbobricks.com/sh...d.php?t=121189
Thanks for that, I remember that post from a few years ago. That has some good analysis in it.

And to add another data point. The freeze plug that has been pushed out on my car is the passenger side one at the front of the engine. Its close to the water pump, and probably sees higher pressure than the others. And these are factory Volvo freeze plugs. But the older B21/23 style that are inverted saucers that you install by inserting them into the block and then putting a big dent in the middle to expand the disc into the hole. I've replaced it once before, and added some jb weld for sealing at that time. It lasted for about a year in that state. Though not much hard running until this last dyno/track day. I just don't see 7000 rpm for very long on the street like I do at the drag strip. Its always a much higher stress at the track. The car cools fine, the datalogs show very little temperature rise over the 1/4 mile.

The motor is coming out in the next week or two for some basic maintenance items. And the freezeplug thing will be fixed somehow.
__________________
-Ken
1967 Volvo 122S
1992 Volvo 244 driver
qwkswede is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2010, 01:54 AM   #54
nathaninwa
The Beloved Oarnge Juice
 
nathaninwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: WA
Default

When I blew mine out the first time, passenger side front was flush with block, and popped the rear 2 out. Drivers popped the front one and the next 2 were flushed with block.

They all were installed so the plug edge was just inside the chamfer.
__________________
962j 815/692@27psi

SHEETMETAL INTAKEhttp://forums.turbobricks.com/showth...etmetal+intake

THIS IS FORSALE V
nathaninwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2010, 02:08 AM   #55
qwkswede
faster than you think
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Denver, CO
Default

A couple people have suggested running propylene glycol for cooling. You can run it straight with no water and its very high boiling. You run it without a pressure cap even. I ran it years ago and it works fine, but decided against it after running some track days at the road coarse. All of the glycol coolants are very slippery and technically not allowed at a race track for safety reasons. It is really tough to clean up the mess if you spill ethylene or propylene glycol on a race track. And the stuff is super expensive.
qwkswede is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2010, 02:44 PM   #56
rkcarguy
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PNW
Default

Alot of it has to do with pump speed and type. While I have limited experience with the volvo engines, I roadraced a 1st gen RX-7 for 2 years. With a gutted thermostat I was running pretty hot by the end of a run at SIR, but at Portland with the higher sustained speeds I ran stone cold ~130.
I had better success with the stamped and bent type water pump over the cast impellor type. The casting is very rough with large vanes that would cause more cavitation IMO.
My spare marine pump for my B230 is a cast impellor type and I figure the one in the boat is as well, but at 5300rpm tops I don't see it being an issue.
__________________
"Brick Boater"
AQ131a(B230) running great.
Twin carb, K-cam'd, Oversize valved B23/B230? build in the works...
rkcarguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2010, 03:07 PM   #57
wennstroma
Board Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Idaho
Default

I've noticed in the last year that the new OEM/Volvo pumps now have stamped impellers too. I haven't compared it to any of the aftermarket ones though.
wennstroma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2010, 03:32 PM   #58
williamb82
Board Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Spring Hill, Florida
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 740tankDriver View Post
someone answer the thermostat question.
i dont run a thermostat in my 7mgte, i was about to recommend some of you try running without it. my guess is your thermostat is too much of a restriction. i never blew freeze plugs, but running the stock radiator the car would heat up very fast with the thermostat in place on hard runs. removed it and the cooling system was then able to keep temps down and not boil out of the cap, though im also running a 16psi car.

i have an aluminum radiator ready to go in so i may try adding the thermostat back, but her in fla, it isnt needed. havent run one for almost 10 years now.
williamb82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2010, 04:24 PM   #59
wennstroma
Board Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Idaho
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by williamb82 View Post
i dont run a thermostat in my 7mgte, i was about to recommend some of you try running without it. my guess is your thermostat is too much of a restriction. i never blew freeze plugs, but running the stock radiator the car would heat up very fast with the thermostat in place on hard runs. removed it and the cooling system was then able to keep temps down and not boil out of the cap, though im also running a 16psi car.

i have an aluminum radiator ready to go in so i may try adding the thermostat back, but her in fla, it isnt needed. havent run one for almost 10 years now.
The Volvo t-stat also blocks off a re-circulation port between the head and water pump when it opens, so removing the t-stat would probably not be a good idea on these engines unless the re-circ port is restricted or blocked off.
wennstroma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2010, 05:31 PM   #60
smokeyfan1000
Guest
 
Default

Adapt to screw in brass freeze plugs. If they are made for Volvo B engines
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2010, 06:26 PM   #61
qwkswede
faster than you think
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Denver, CO
Default

This was going to be my solution. Do you have any info on where to find the right size for the Volvos?
qwkswede is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2010, 10:33 PM   #62
smokeyfan1000
Guest
 
Default

I'd check with an automotive machine shop that does a lot of "foriegn cars" engines. Or google & see what comes up. Seems like someone on here found some, IIRCC.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 01:24 AM   #63
burstcurse
Board Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Default

there is absolutly now way pressure is pushing out freeze plugs.

the radiator cap will open and let the pressure out before the resivoir bottle explodes because it is the 2nd weakest link then there is no way the radiator hoses will hold any thing past 40 psi not to mention the heater core would be leaking onto your feet already.

you guys having problems are just not putting them in right... maybe you should have never pulled the originals to begin with.

taking out a thermostat is just dumb because your car will over heat as no water will flow through the radiator.

evans waterless coolant is dumb too of course it dont boil. neither will water if you can contain it.

water pumps dont make pressure because it can only get its water from the radiator and the radiator from the motor so its a loop all it can do is make water flow faster or slower in the loop.

if you have everything right and they are coming out is must be because your shaking ths piss outa the block until it turns to jello and the block lets tension off the plugs. and yes 4 banger shake no matter how much you paid some guy to "balance" or "blueprint" it.

or your pinging the engine to death anyway but you cometic HG wont let go nor will you forged pistons and H-beam rods so what is left to break? how about the block.

dont believe me? look at this. almost 1050 horse power from a 2.0 vw it started pinging and this happend.



you can clearly see he had some nice pistons/rods dry sump oil light weight flywheel fully built better than most cars here.

Dont let em ping not even a little. this thread sucks.
burstcurse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 08:14 AM   #64
Boris740
Broad Member
 
Boris740's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Aurora, Ontario
Default

How abut pressing a smaller freeze inside the original one? Should one be so lucky to find the optimum size.
__________________
Got knock? Got Megasquirt? Check out Knocksense knock indicator and KnocksenseMS indicating Megasquirt interface.http://www.viatrack.ca/
Boris740 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 02:47 PM   #65
stylngle2003
Board Member
 
stylngle2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Two Up, Two Down
Default

has anyone logged coolant pressure to see if we are lifting heads? this is a common issue with BMW m20 running boost
__________________
-Billy
Volvoless for the first time since 1990...
2002 Toyota Avalon XLS (comfy gradma car)
1996 Chevrolet Tahoe LS 2WD (hauls ass)
1990 Mazda Miata (track toy)
stylngle2003 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 03:29 PM   #66
dbh86
What's a 16V?
 
dbh86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by burstcurse View Post
//epeen contest//
this thread sucks.
the world is flat
__________________


'07 MS6 - DD/DSP of doom
'92 245 - Eternal Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxman51 View Post
Incidentally, if we're going to follow this other train of thought, you should install your spare tire while the vehicle is cruising at 55mph, since that's about where it'll be used most often.
dbh86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 03:35 PM   #67
linuxman51
BRANDSCHUTZVORSCHRIFTEN!
 
linuxman51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: mont, AL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by burstcurse View Post
there is absolutly now way pressure is pushing out freeze plugs.

the radiator cap will open and let the pressure out before the resivoir bottle explodes because it is the 2nd weakest link then there is no way the radiator hoses will hold any thing past 40 psi not to mention the heater core would be leaking onto your feet already.

you guys having problems are just not putting them in right... maybe you should have never pulled the originals to begin with.
Interesting. So I ejected 3 when the headgasket let go and the cap did nothing... because they just felt like leaving? Localized pressure buildups can and do happen for a variety of reasons, faulty installation notwithstanding. A gradual increase in pressure will usually work it's way back to the reservoir and out the cap, sure; but a rapid increase will find the nearest easiest mode of exit.

and just what are you basing your lovely observations and "facts" on, or are you simply trolling?

Quote:
this thread sucks.
you suck.
__________________
"They bum rushed them in their own crib, they drank all their beer, they partied with their ladies and they left with the trophy"

Now with in-house Dyno tuning!

Megasquirt Tuning!
Plug and play LH 2.4 Megasquirt, now with stealth mode!
linuxman51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 04:44 PM   #68
burstcurse
Board Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxman51 View Post
and just what are you basing your lovely observations and "facts" on, or are you simply trolling?

the cap should open at 11PSI if yours don't then get a new one. Ive seen people rebuild entire engines replace radiators and still have a problem because the cap was bad.

this is why you check the simple stuff first.

if the cap opens at 11 then your freeze plugs will never see more than 11PSI if they cant hold 11PSI then you put them in wrong.


moral of the story get a new coolant reservoir cap if you just built an engine. if the plugs fall out again then the block is flexing like John was talking about and if that's the case your probably pounding the hell out of your engine with detonation.
burstcurse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 06:33 PM   #69
dbh86
What's a 16V?
 
dbh86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by burstcurse View Post
Gospel of Coolant Systems to TB
While you're off stating that this is the one and only true path to the solution of this problem, many of us infidels disagree with some of the basic principles that you are basing your arguments on. Perhaps this would work in an ideal world, but the world is not flat.
dbh86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 06:57 PM   #70
745 TurboGreasel
Board Member
 
745 TurboGreasel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Freedom CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by burstcurse View Post
taking out a thermostat is just dumb because your car will over heat as no water will flow through the radiator.
This is a perfect illustration of the non fact world this guy lives in.

If you look at his posts, about 1 in 30 have some correct information.
__________________
. . No remorse . . . . No regret . . .War without end


Feedback

745 TurboGreasel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 07:03 PM   #71
fst64_v8pwr
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Default

Very interesting information here
fst64_v8pwr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 07:27 PM   #72
mikep
The MP
 
mikep's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: 38° 27' N 75° 29' W
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by burstcurse View Post

taking out a thermostat is just dumb because your car will over heat as no water will flow through the radiator.

evans waterless coolant is dumb too of course it dont boil. neither will water if you can contain it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by burstcurse View Post

if the cap opens at 11 then your freeze plugs will never see more than 11PSI if they cant hold 11PSI then you put them in wrong.
1. In many (most, at one time) engines, no thermostat means more flow. Too much, in most cases.
In a bypass system, it can overheat at idle, but do OK at high RPM. As stated above, you can block off the bypass.

2. Any liquid will boil, there is no magic liquid. The boiling point of any liquid will increase as pressure increases. Antifreeze has a higher boiling point than water, but does not transfer heat as well.

3. a spring-loaded cap letting pressure out via a wee hose can do little if there is instantaneous boiling due to a pressure drop. Pressure increases the boiling point, and a temp spike makes a pressure spike, which can cause a sudden leak, at which point all hell breaks loose. You should see what built Clevelands do in 65 mustangs. Yes, they fit, no, they don't like it. That's where I got my hands-on training in stupid cooling mishaps. Kenny got his in the same way.

Lastly: He who posts the prettiest photo does not win by default. But it sure is a beaut.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by VB242 View Post
I'ma have to go get me some juggalette strange
mikep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 07:34 PM   #73
Captain Bondo
Exklusiv Zubehör Klub
 
Captain Bondo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Default

Ok a collection of thoughts. Apologies in advance this is a bit long....


Do you guys use water wetter? I put some in my whiteblock as I figured I didn't have much to lose, but I've never really noticed any differences in coolant temps or anything.

It has been theorized that water wetter should help reduce the formation of steam pockets that can be one of the cause of localized hotspots that can result in freeze plug eruptions. There's no silver bullet and it's not like that will cure it, but it seems to claim to help with such things...


Next thought....
There's probably a combination of mitigating factors - some being either too much coolant flow or cavitation or both, and some being block flex. Not that there are tons of them around, but I've never heard of high revving NA motors doing this...

Regardless, just for the record anyone who expect the radiator cap to compensate for any of these conditions doesn't have their head wrapped around what is happening to what.


Next thought....
I don't think the tstat causes it necessarily, but it would be interesting to datalog coolant pressure on a dyno pull with and without the tstat installed. Reason being if the waterpump does generate too much flow then the pressure is a result of cooling system "backpressure" - if removing the tstat resulted in a noticeable reduction in high rpm coolant pressure then it might suggest that underdriving/modifying the pump might be worthwhile.

If not it might suggest the problem is more mechanical (block flex, undersized freezeplugs, whatever).


I know the waterpump is not positive displacement, but we don't really know what the "curve" looks like. So it's still not impossible that speeds over the intended 6000-6500rpm revlimit don't result in more flow and more system pressure...
__________________


-Kenny
(I crushed a 240 with some stuff done to it. Honest.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan View Post
Turbobricks isn't a car forum any more. Its a forum for lame kids.
Captain Bondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 11:56 PM   #74
smokeyfan1000
Guest
 
Default

I tend to think freze plug problems(if they are correctly installed) are most likely due block flex/vibes.Are not most of you guys having these problems running turbo boost pressures(& HP) way above what Volvo probably intended for these engines/blocks to stand? Especially when they get to be 18+ years old?

DO not most hi-perf V8 engine builders go to brass threaded freeze plugs for engines intended to run way above OEM intended HP engine blocks, figuring they will add a bit of rigidity in the freeze plug area, above the OEM press ins?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 12:01 AM   #75
smokeyfan1000
Guest
 
Default

I do know that Smokey Yunick slowed the flow on water in the block on his NASCAR BBC engines. Said it was pumping too fast. But now they same the opposite.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:38 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.