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Old 06-25-2017, 08:49 PM   #1
muppetman342
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Default Another thread about pinging on LH 2.4, 16T edition

First off, the set up: B230F+T, 16T, 30lb/hr injectors, TLAO chips, Buchka spark, ipd turbo cam, stock IC, regular MAF, AEM WBO2, was running NGK BPR7ES but went to BR7ES to try and help this problem, 3" exhaust up to the under axle where it becomes 2 1/4" through a muffler and out. Also just recently went to an efan because the clutch fan was giving me problems with the shroud and whatnot. 93 octane.

I had been running 10-11 psi for awhile and I wisely decided to up the boost during the summer. First adjustment got me up to 14 psi and I noticed a couple clicks of detonation when getting up there in the boost so I let off (like ya do).

I got the MBC set back down to 11, but I guess it is slightly higher than it used to be because I don't recall having detonation problems before. Perhaps I was just ignorant of them until I really started listening again as I was doing this tuning?

So here's the part I'd love some thoughts on: if I work the boost up to 11 gradually, no problem, AFRS are at 10.8 at 11 psi and there's no detonation. If I hop on the gas suddenly it'll do one of two things;
1) It'll boost up and the AFRs will fall with the boost and there's no problem
2) It'll boost up and AFRs don't quite move fast enough and I'll get a couple clicks at 11 psi with the AFR being low 12's, then the AFRs will get where they need to be and there's no more problem at 11 psi sustained.

In the Winter when I first put the 16T on I actually did have the boost set to about 13-14 but I do understand that it was colder then and those numbers may just not be feasible for me during the summer in Virginia.

A lot of the reading that I've done seems to suggest "chips & injectors" I've got the chips, and the fact that I do eventually reach proper AFRs makes me think I'm not running out of injectors, but maybe I'm right on the edge and that somehow effects their response? I don't know.

Another issue is my crap idle, not sure if it's related. But I've done boost-leak tests, replaced ignition components, and verified sensors in search of the idle issue but to no avail, so maybe I have a lazy injector or something.
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Old 06-26-2017, 05:44 AM   #2
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I had the same setup minus the Buchka Spark and was able to run 15psi without issue. I never had an idle issue other than when the ecu was learning for the first couple starts, after that is was smooth as stock. I'd bet that whatever issue is giving you a crap idle is also the culprit behind your detonation episodes, especially with the lack of consistency.

Have you pulled codes from the little black box in the engine bay to see if there is anything showing?
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Old 06-26-2017, 09:07 AM   #3
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Hm that's good to know. Yea, black box isn't telling me diddly. Next thing I'm going to do is check fuel pressure when my tester gets here on Wednesday. Also tonight I'll post up a video of my idle.

It's definitely not the worst idle ever but it is a little inconsistent with vacuum wavering up and down, almost feels like it's misfiring now and again. Even if I take it off idle to 1500 I still feel a misfire now and again. Now the engine does have 320K on it and has it's share of piston slap and some other ticks, I'm wondering if maybe this is a mechanical issue.
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Old 06-26-2017, 06:53 PM   #4
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This just in, I do have a scent of gas from the FPR vacuum line. Now it is a scent, not a full blown "there's enough gas dripping out to fill my tank" sort of deal. What say we brickers? I'm thinking any scent is reason to replace, the weird thing is that I replaced it a little over two years and 80,000 miles ago, I thought these things were supposed to last forever.
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Old 06-26-2017, 08:43 PM   #5
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This just in, I do have a scent of gas from the FPR vacuum line. Now it is a scent, not a full blown "there's enough gas dripping out to fill my tank" sort of deal. What say we brickers? I'm thinking any scent is reason to replace, the weird thing is that I replaced it a little over two years and 80,000 miles ago, I thought these things were supposed to last forever.
Scent is fine, liquid is not. Run engine, pull FPR hose, no fluid? Good. Rev engine, still no fluid? Good. I'd look elsewhere.

Do you have another car? You mentioned earlier that you are doubting injectors, might be worth sending them off to get cleaned.
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Old 06-26-2017, 09:01 PM   #6
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Scent is fine, liquid is not. Run engine, pull FPR hose, no fluid? Good. Rev engine, still no fluid? Good. I'd look elsewhere.

Do you have another car? You mentioned earlier that you are doubting injectors, might be worth sending them off to get cleaned.
I thought scent meant that it was leaking, it might just be leaking only under weird specific circumstances eg. certain amounts of vacuum or boost. Unfortunately I don't have another car, the path I would go there would be 4 new injectors. The 4 on the car now are junkyard injectors from an 850 (GLT I believe) so possibly questionable anyway.
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:51 PM   #7
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Injectors are to small for sure, stock injectors are 32lb/hr for a 1990+ turbo car. The enrichment under accel is smaller than what it should be because of the injectors size. With your mods I would find a set of 35-38lb/hr injectors and run those.

Knock on 93 oct is not expected at that low of boost. I get 14psi before knock on 91oct.

Have you done a top end cleaning to make sure the Pistons are not covered in carbon from being a barely driven hard N/a.

You could try a simple fix and run a 4bar fpr and see if that helps.
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Old 07-01-2017, 10:39 AM   #8
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Put on new flow-matched 36 lb/hr injectors from five-o, found/fixed a boost leak from a split intake hose, verified that fuel pressure is within spec, replaced the knock sensor with a new one, changed to BPR8ES plugs...still having this problem. Part of me is actually wondering if I'm not hearing ping/knock, and I'm actually hearing the wastegate shoot open, is that a thing you would hear from the cabin? This thought popped into my mind because I only hear one click, maybe two, so maybe the wastegate flaps around a little bit...? Could just be that the EZK is appropriately reacting and stopping more knock, which seems more likely honestly.

The strange thing is that this noise that I'm perceiving now as ping is actually not entirely new. I'm fairly certain I had heard it back when I first put my 13c on at stock boost, back then I just thought the noise was my mechanical fan hitting the shroud (because it did). Now that I'm on the efan I know that isn't the case.

I think my next step will probably be to build det-cans and try to figure out just what I'm listening to.
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Old 07-02-2017, 12:35 AM   #9
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Join the club. I hear pinging at 10psi on a 13c with an NPR intercooler, turbo cam, and 2.5" exhaust. Seems to be the nature of the beast unfortunately. Surely you could tune around it with standalone but we're all hoping for a band aid I guess. At least us 9.8:1 guys.

I'm scared of trying a bigger turbo at 15psi because I know it will knock like crazy. I guess I'm stuck with a 150whp car
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Old 07-02-2017, 01:05 AM   #10
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You checked base fuel pressure or wot fuel pressure under load? What are your plugs gapped too?
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Old 07-02-2017, 07:57 AM   #11
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You checked base fuel pressure or wot fuel pressure under load? What are your plugs gapped too?
You got me, I checked base fuel pressure. I'm going to need to come up with a clever way to check under load, it'll probably involve taking the hood off. Good point though, maybe as the boost hits, the pressure isn't coming up fast enough? One thing I forgot to mention about the fuel pressure check I did was that the Bentley book said the pressure should drop about 9 psi when I connect the FPR vacuum line, I was only seeing it drop about 5 when I connect it. Not sure how definitive a test that is but just something I noticed.

Plugs are gapped to 0.30" now, were gapped to 0.28" when I was on the BPR7ES's.

I did some more observational driving on the highway while going to North Carolina yesterday and I've got some videos that I'll be getting up soon. Basically as the boost climbs, AFRs start to go rich, hesitate/go stoich again, then continue to enrich, all while boost is steadily climbing.

Another thought I've had is: I have a 5xx series ecu, I know the 9xx have faster processors, would switching to a 9xx help me in any way? Faster response time from the fuel system maybe? I've never been able to find a definitive answer whether or not the 9xx's are better than the 5xx's but I would think double the clock speeds gotta be good for something.

Thanks for the help so far everyone, really hoping I can get this sorted out.

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Old 07-02-2017, 05:45 PM   #12
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I've noticed even on bone stock 940 turbos you get a little ping on a wot throttle smash. In all honesty if you put a bigger turbo on it it will probably not do it
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Old 07-02-2017, 10:13 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by PromiseRing View Post
Join the club. I hear pinging at 10psi on a 13c with an NPR intercooler, turbo cam, and 2.5" exhaust. Seems to be the nature of the beast unfortunately. Surely you could tune around it with standalone but we're all hoping for a band aid I guess. At least us 9.8:1 guys.
I feel like this isn't the first time we've had similar problems with our cars, I recall an overheating issue we shared awhile back haha

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I've noticed even on bone stock 940 turbos you get a little ping on a wot throttle smash. In all honesty if you put a bigger turbo on it it will probably not do it
You mean bigger than a 16T? It's already bigger than the bone stock 13c, not sure I'm understanding you here.

Anyway, I've got a video here that I think describes the problem pretty well. I'm actually pretty sure my car has done this since the +T, it just wasn't a problem til now trying to turn the boost up on the bigger turbo.

https://youtu.be/78yZ98m4CkM 1:00 is the prime example of the rich/lean/rich thing

Has anyone seen behavior like this? This delayed enrichment/lean spot thing? What's weird is that it goes rich, then goes back lean, then goes rich again. Maybe a fuel pump problem?
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Old 07-02-2017, 11:22 PM   #14
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Doing some more research now that I have a more specific direction to go in rather than just, "It pings, halp". Found this thread: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=225305 where gsellstr said he had a rogue MAF doing this. I've tried two different MAFs and it hasn't made a lick of difference. Odds of two bad MAFs? Anyone have a known good MAF they want to sell me?

Also here's another, more concise, example of the issue:
https://youtu.be/NJKkgyuEMus
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Old 07-05-2017, 10:50 PM   #15
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You mean bigger than a 16T? It's already bigger than the bone stock 13c, not sure I'm understanding you here.
Yes, he means bigger than anything with a td04 hotside that spools that fast.

If you're going to check fuel pressure run a gauge to where you can see it while driving and make it happen. I really doubt that's going to be your issue.
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Old 07-12-2017, 12:45 PM   #16
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i had the same problem, b230fk swapped 960 with 15g turbo and V cam. i fitted an aftermarket FPR and currently running on 3.2bar, will try to crank up the fpr to 4 bar and see if it helps.
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Old 07-13-2017, 08:40 PM   #17
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Update: Got another MAF from another turbobricker that's almost new, same rich-lean-rich issue as before soooo thinking it's not a MAF issue. Still seems weird and likely-electronic but I'll try and do a fuel pressure test while moving this weekend. Any recommendations for doing so? I'm thinking I'll have to take the hood off, not likely the hose for the gauge will fit in that gap and I don't need the hood flying up and hitting the windshield, been there, done that.
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:44 PM   #18
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I think that's just how stock 2.4 is. Mine reacts similarly. It's stock 90s technology.
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:50 PM   #19
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I think that's just how stock 2.4 is. Mine reacts similarly. It's stock 90s technology.
I've got TLAO's chips so it's not quite stock 2.4. And I don't really believe that, other people wouldn't be running the boost they're running if this was just how it is.
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:00 PM   #20
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ever consider that the motor is just flat worn out at 320,000 miles?
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:02 PM   #21
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ever consider that the motor is just flat worn out at 320,000 miles?
Hey dad pardon the ignorance here but what would being worn out have to do with pinging? Not being a smartass. Genuinely curious.
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:04 PM   #22
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ever consider that the motor is just flat worn out at 320,000 miles?
Definitely considered it, wouldn't explain the lean spot though.
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Old 07-14-2017, 01:34 PM   #23
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A worn out engine will typically have blow by the rings, not only will this cause CC pressure in the crank case it will also add oil vapors into the CC which will in turn reduce the octane of the fuel you are using and make the engine more susceptible to knock.
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Old 07-14-2017, 05:58 PM   #24
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Another update: it's hot out today and if I shut the car off and immediately try to restart it, it won't idle. If I keep it alive with my right foot for a few seconds it'll sort itself out. Seems to me like a potential ECT problem, weird because I checked the spec on it at the ECU recently and it was fine. I'll be investigating further. Also have a 2-3-2 code but I'm not sure if that's just caused by the 36lb injectors.

This weekend will involve many tests.
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:35 PM   #25
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Mine doess the same thing on Jack rabbit starts, stock minus chip filter and 11psi mbc. If you acceletate gradually its no issue. I'd chalk it up to late 80's tech and worn engines.
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