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Old 07-06-2017, 10:14 AM   #1
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Default Different intake manifold

Is there any intake manifold that would increase torque on a na b230 ? Why do some use a b21 intake?
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Old 07-06-2017, 04:02 PM   #2
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There is some debate over which manifolds flow better, but IMHO on a NA motor you're not gonna get a noticeable improvement by changing the intake manifold. Camshaft and exhaust is your best bet, you'll get a lot more bang for your buck, a different cam can completely change the personality of the engine.
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Old 07-06-2017, 05:33 PM   #3
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Longer runners usually mean better torque but it all depends a lot on the camshaft they have to work with.

B230 style manifold worked best for me running K camshaft on na B21 with K-jet.
I used a crude "flowbench" awhile ago and compared 4 different manifolds (b21, b21ft (the worst), b230 and LH1.0) aiming for best high RPM power since that's what the K cam is for.

Mating the injection system with B21 manifold may be too much work for the torque you may gain.
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Old 07-06-2017, 06:16 PM   #4
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The K jet manifold works well with its long runners.

Exhaust is where most improvement can be found.

On the inlet side a option that could be worth considering (I am thinging of trying one on a NA engine myself) http://www.classicswede.co.uk/Inlet_..._16487795.aspx
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Old 07-06-2017, 08:02 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by PCH View Post
Longer runners usually mean better torque but it all depends a lot on the camshaft they have to work with.

B230 style manifold worked best for me running K camshaft on na B21 with K-jet.
I used a crude "flowbench" awhile ago and compared 4 different manifolds (b21, b21ft (the worst), b230 and LH1.0) aiming for best high RPM power since that's what the K cam is for.

Mating the injection system with B21 manifold may be too much work for the torque you may gain.
I've heard the b21 manifold flows about 10% more than the b230 one. Were you able to verify that? As my welding skills improve, I've thought about modifying one for efi and a larger throttle body, like this http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=333469.

I agree with the "probably not worth it" assessment, but I would really like to know if it actually moves more air.
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Old 07-06-2017, 08:48 PM   #6
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Larger throttle body very rarely helps anything, all it ends up doing is making the throttle response more twitchy. If the OEM one were undersized it would help to go larger but with Volvos that is not generally an issue.
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Old 07-06-2017, 08:50 PM   #7
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You will want a head and cam combination that actually flows a decent amount before worrying about manifolds.
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but volvo does not use a head gasket on this engine they use an anaerobic sealant applied very thin. I'm pretty sure OEM parts are mostly forged internals in volvo's and cast block. The fact your trying to poke fun at me saying it doesn't have a head gasket, when it doesn't, makes me wonder why your even here.
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Old 07-06-2017, 08:53 PM   #8
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To Kenunot: No, what I saw made me want to choose B230 style manifold for high RPM flow. But low RPM torque (probably that's what the OP is after) is not about overall maximum flow at all- it's mostly about moving the max effect of dynamic supercharging (Helmholtz, pressure wave resonance) down the RPM range.

Never saw any numbers on different manifolds, would be interesting to find info on that 10%. May be it was on forced induction?

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Old 07-06-2017, 09:31 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by To old for this View Post
Is there any intake manifold that would increase torque on a na b230 ? Why do some use a b21 intake?

Torque, for a given fuel is pretty much a function of engine volume x corrected compression ratio--aka dynamic compression...

People use B21 because what is correctly called "inter-net Lore"..

It works by making up anything you want, and repeating "I like how my car goes!!"

It works by also whining and calling anybody who innocently asks just how whatever claim it is an ******* or a know it all or I love this one "an elitist"...

You din't say it but I 'll venture a guess that you have a n.a. B230 and it is so slow you routinely nod off asleep because it is slow, right? I know what you're suffering from cause my daily is a 88 wag-goon with 300,000 miles a long time ago..

Easiest answer is:
1)pull the head, and have a mchine shop chop about 060" or 1.5mm off
2) get a cam from same place I'll be getting 2 or 3 cams in Sweden..
Why? because the vast overwhelming majority of all the guys here only f**k around a little on turbo cars and mostly concerning themelves with drag racing...

So they always answer every inquiry with "Plus Tea it"...
Then there's all the kids who have never changed a cam who just repeat s**t to hear their head rattle who always say "get this_____________ cam, I LIKE it" and the cam is always either some emission cam or copied emissions cam with lob centers diddled or some such stuff..
And the results are what has been described as "limp dick" performance..

You can pull the head yourself.. Machine shop might charge $80-100 to hack off 060..
Cam maybe around $275 with airmail and everything...

If you want do do something with the manifolds either throw them all away or weld in substantially larger runners.
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Old 07-06-2017, 09:32 PM   #10
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I picked up 14 whp with nothing but a intake manifold swap on my car, went from a b230 intake to a b21f intake
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Old 07-06-2017, 09:34 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
You will want a head and cam combination that actually flows a decent amount before worrying about manifolds.

"Flow" mein beliebt Peruvianisch amigo is all about higher Are Pea Ems..

Im think your native word 'drehmoment' gives a better idea what we'ze after
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Old 07-06-2017, 10:19 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by cosbySweater View Post
I picked up 14 whp with nothing but a intake manifold swap on my car, went from a b230 intake to a b21f intake
Which is, like, 30% on an NA car.
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Old 07-07-2017, 12:28 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
"Flow" mein beliebt Peruvianisch amigo is all about higher Are Pea Ems..

Im think your native word 'drehmoment' gives a better idea what we'ze after
Right, but the manifolds do not present a restriction on a 530 head with an emissions cam now does it, Opa Jan?

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Which is, like, 30% on an NA car.
That was on a turbo motor running a fair amount of boost iirc
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Old 07-07-2017, 05:19 AM   #14
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Right, but the manifolds do not present a restriction on a 530 head with an emissions cam now does it, Opa Jan?
Yes it does give a LOT of restriction on a original 530 head with any factory cam. Just changing the manifold can see around a 30BHP gain!

For towing power run as much CR as the fuel you use will allow. 4-2-1 tubular manifold with a 2.5 inch exhaust. The K jetronic manifold is teh best of teh factory manifolds. Cam wise of factory cams you want to go for A, D or V cam
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Old 07-07-2017, 09:47 AM   #15
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Thanks for all of the replies. May try the b21 if there is one in my stash.
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Old 07-07-2017, 10:23 AM   #16
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Id get a different ring and pinion setup over exhaust, intake, cam any day.
What gears do you have now?
I have 4:11 on a completely stock 245 and it'll spin the tires off the line like nothing.
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Old 07-07-2017, 03:14 PM   #17
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Id get a different ring and pinion setup over exhaust, intake, cam any day.
What gears do you have now?
I have 4:11 on a completely stock 245 and it'll spin the tires off the line like nothing.
Good point.. We din't even ask if the poor boy has a slush-o-matic or what...My wag-goon is geared so sky high that it below peak torque at 75mph and hence a dog..And since I'm not doing primarily cross country cruise or high speed autobahn I could be perfectly happy with a bit more revs at cruise in 5th if it meant better-er ax all the other times I'm just driving around and going up hills.

Still though, if the subject is more oomph compression and a non-emissions cam ---and of course a decent exhaust (that's a foundation for everything really, and so it goes without saying but probably should be said anyway) is at some point the absolute key thing..
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Old 07-07-2017, 03:21 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
...

Easiest answer is:
1)pull the head, and have a mchine shop chop about 060" or 1.5mm off

...
Agreed. Three additional points.

1. VX Cam from IPD
2. Base timing 14° BTDC
3. Open up the exhaust. 2 1/4" pipe minimum.
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Old 07-07-2017, 03:30 PM   #19
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One last point (since what I have proposed has caused me monetary loss).

Shaving the head sixty thousandths and dropping in a VX cam effectively makes the engine interference.

You have been made privy. Now, go have fun (and make sure your tensioner is new AND tight)
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Old 07-08-2017, 12:19 AM   #20
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in lieu of the Words of the Enlightened..

+t it
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Old 07-08-2017, 04:07 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swedefiend View Post
One last point (since what I have proposed has caused me monetary loss).

Shaving the head sixty thousandths and dropping in a VX cam effectively makes the engine interference.

You have been made privy. Now, go have fun (and make sure your tensioner is new AND tight)

Another TB myth long ago shown by simple numbers to be untrue..Chamer is more than 13mm deep, gasket anythere from 1 to 1,2mm deep.

Valve would have to be open more than 14mm --shaved 1.5 it would be valve opened at /near TDC more than 12mm..
And with inline valves--inline with bore, all I have ever seen is you push the valve closed and ONCE--on a different engine, revved way past 7600...contact resulted in a bent pushrofd and no other damage..



Anybody who knows anything about when valves begin to lift can see even with radical cams the lift at TDC might be 2,5 to 3,5mm max--a LONG way to go..
How can valve hit pistons 8-10-11mm away?

Any other things the "truthiness" of which you'd like to discuss?
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Old 07-08-2017, 04:11 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by swedefiend View Post
Agreed. Three additional points.

1. VX Cam from IPD
2. Base timing 14° BTDC
3. Open up the exhaust. 2 1/4" pipe minimum.

Isn't VX cam just a lobe from one Volvo emissions cam on one side and another on the other?

In other words just another limp-dick girly-man cam??

I'm really baffled at why THIS FORUM...Performance forum seems not only to be unaware of performance cams, but downright resistant to even discussing them..
Evidently it seems to be some kind of admission of inexperience....
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Old 07-08-2017, 04:49 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Another TB myth long ago shown by simple numbers to be untrue..Chamer is more than 13mm deep, gasket anythere from 1 to 1,2mm deep.

Valve would have to be open more than 14mm --shaved 1.5 it would be valve opened at /near TDC more than 12mm..
And with inline valves--inline with bore, all I have ever seen is you push the valve closed and ONCE--on a different engine, revved way past 7600...contact resulted in a bent pushrofd and no other damage..



Anybody who knows anything about when valves begin to lift can see even with radical cams the lift at TDC might be 2,5 to 3,5mm max--a LONG way to go..
How can valve hit pistons 8-10-11mm away?

Any other things the "truthiness" of which you'd like to discuss?
Not untrue actually. The uncut had on my turbo car was close enough to interference with the IPD turbo cam that it left indentations in the Carbon when the timing belt jumped two teeth.

The cut head on the rally car with a k-cam... definitely interference. Verified during assembly by the valves hitting the piston.
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Old 07-08-2017, 09:43 AM   #24
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Id get a different ring and pinion setup over exhaust, intake, cam any day.
What gears do you have now?
I have 4:11 on a completely stock 245 and it'll spin the tires off the line like nothing.
More thanks for all contributed info. My main goal was just to make it a little more fun. I don't need a tire burner, my very senior brain can't react fast enough if something goes wrong. Car has a hp22 slush box (sorry John) 3.73 gears 185/65 tires. Stock exhaust. My normal driving route is almost perfect for good mpg.
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Old 07-08-2017, 12:30 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Another TB myth long ago shown by simple numbers to be untrue..Chamer is more than 13mm deep, gasket anythere from 1 to 1,2mm deep.

Valve would have to be open more than 14mm --shaved 1.5 it would be valve opened at /near TDC more than 12mm..
And with inline valves--inline with bore, all I have ever seen is you push the valve closed and ONCE--on a different engine, revved way past 7600...contact resulted in a bent pushrofd and no other damage..



Anybody who knows anything about when valves begin to lift can see even with radical cams the lift at TDC might be 2,5 to 3,5mm max--a LONG way to go..
How can valve hit pistons 8-10-11mm away?

Any other things the "truthiness" of which you'd like to discuss?
Dude, I like you usually.

However, you're being obstinate for no reason.

I shaved my head .060 and tried multiple cams. I happened to like the VX.

One day getting out of the car, my foot slipped off clutch pedal putting car into neutral. The car lunged violently. Upon restarting it, all it would do is 'click'.

Towed it home, pulled the head. Found two bent valves. Now, how pray-tell did those valves get bent if it were not for lobe lift jacking the valves into the incoming pistons???
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