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Old 03-05-2019, 06:06 PM   #51
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Also, anyone know if there would be visible damage to the ECU circuit board if the injector drivers had died? I assume there would at least be that fried-electrical smell up close. Maybe I'll open it up.

Edit: Opened up the ECU, looks perfect, smells perfect...I don't know.

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Old 03-05-2019, 07:52 PM   #52
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So, testing pin 18 on the ECU for a short to ground:

Testing with injectors unplugged and a noid lite on an injector wire. I'm running the positive lead of my multimeter to the big red wires on the fuel relay for a 12v source.

-ECU connected, all pins still in, ignition off, - wire on multimeter to pin 18 = approx. 14v.

-ECU connected, pin/wire 18 removed, ignition off, multimeter - to wire 18 = 14v.

So there's definitely a constant ground through wire 18 even with ignition off. With ign off, the noid lite on the injectors is off. Only when ign is turned on does the noid lite come on, and constant. I also don't know why it's 14v and not more like 12v. I do have a charger on it but still.
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Old 03-05-2019, 08:51 PM   #53
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IT RUNS! Albeit not well, and I have no idea why it started running. I just plugged ECU 18 back in and plugged the injectors back in and tried cranking it to watch the noid lite, and it started up and idled! It's a choppy idle, it does have an IPD cam but it's choppier than it should be still. Also lots of exhaust smoke and a 224 code. 224 is ECT right? Thing is this ECT is the same one that was working fine in the car I pulled it from, so I don't know why it would be bad now.

Seems like I'm getting closer (famous last words), I'm pretty happy at the moment.
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Old 03-05-2019, 08:53 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GolfClapperX View Post
I do have the DB harness with the resistor pack connector...
Interior wires I have connected from the DB harness:
A1. Blue- switched power from ign pin 15 (tapped into fuse panel number 11)
A2. Blue (fat)- switched power from ign pin 15 (also tapped into fuse panel 11 - DB's instructions state that fuses 11,12,or 13 are acceptable)
B2. Red/yel (fat) (although it's not really very fat like the old one was which confuses me)- fuse panel number 4
B7. Pink- wired to starter solenoid

Wires NOT being used:
B1. red/gray- ECU pin 15- A/C relay
B3. green- ECU pin 14- A/C clutch
B4. black/blue- ECU pin 34- Speedo pulse
B5. Violet- ECU pin 26- shift light
B6. pink/white (x2) ECU pin 22, ICU pin3- check engine light
B8. red/white- powerstage pin 1- output to tach
Looks OK. The DB harness has a fuse and a big red wire to the battery in the engine compartment, correct? Some years of the Volvo harnesses have that, and others route the main battery red wires through the cabin connector.

For B7 Pink to starter solenoid: is the car an automatic? If so, where exactly is this connected? It should be on the ignition switch side of the P/N interlock, not on the other side that goes to the solenoid. [This wire isn't critical, but the ECU uses this for idle adjustment on the automatics when going between park and drive.]

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Originally Posted by GolfClapperX View Post
So the way I was just switching 12v to the three ignition wires before (big yel, big yel/blue, small red/black) has been working fine for a couple years with LH 2.2. Is there really a reason this wouldn't work with LH 2.4?
Should be fine.

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Originally Posted by GolfClapperX View Post
It does seem like it's blown injector drivers, but I do remember trying the ECU out of a 92 940t that I had sitting around a while back, and the symptoms remained identical. ...
How good was your original resistor pack wiring - are you sure that nothing was mis-wired or shorted out before you tried starting it for the first time? If you tried to start it and the ECU side of the injectors was shorted to +12, or the resistor pack wasn't correct, you may have damaged the ECU. I'm not sure how quickly the damage occurs -- I don't know if it would have started and fried in minutes or only a few seconds.

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Also, anyone know if there would be visible damage to the ECU circuit board if the injector drivers had died?
The injector driver is the power transistor on the heatsink closest to the main connector. They usually fry without smelling, but the plastic transistor body may bulge out or discolor.

For repair instructions, see:
http://ipdown.net/jetronic.info/tiki...er+Replacement

You'll need a TIP122 ($0.55) [the original is an ON823, or similar darlington transistor, and the TIP122 is generic substitute]:
https://www.jameco.com/z/TIP122--Maj...lk_120416.html
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Old 03-05-2019, 09:08 PM   #55
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bobxyz, you've been amazingly helpful all throughout my ordeal and I really appreciate it. You even linked me to the transistor I'd need, that's awesome.

My pink wire actually right now is going to the momentary switch I use for my starter (an old 240 defrost switch mounted on the console). I had it running all the way to the solenoid earlier but I changed that. This car is auto. It was an M46 car but I made it auto a long time ago for my girlfriend...can't win every battle.

As for how good my wiring was before the DB harness, well, the wiring condition itself was pretty good. But I definitely could have hooked something up wrong and fried stuff.

Nice instructions on replacing the transistor too. The first sentence on that page still concerns me a bit since it says the symptoms would be a car that doesn't run, or only runs briefly with the injectors unplugged, and crankcase full of gas. All those things did 100% apply to me until about 30 minutes ago. Now it runs but I guess maybe it's still running rich. Since the code is 224 I guess I have to look closely at the ECT and it's wiring...

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Old 03-05-2019, 10:50 PM   #56
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Knew I spoke too soon. I changed the ECT and went start it again, and after it turned over a few times and didn't start I noticed the pumps and injectors were powered even when not cranking. It wasn't doing that earlier. I quickly unhooked the injectors and tried to crank it again but it was hydrolocked. I'll try again tomorrow afternoon.

Also, it's not nice of me to post this publicly but on the other hand it's not nice to charge someone $417 for garbage... the new wiring harness is actually crap as it turns out. The wires pull out of the pins every time you try and unplug a connector, and you have to unclip/remove the pins and re-crimp them. Both wires just loosely fell out of the ECT connector, and earlier while removing pin 18 on the ECU, I noticed that wire didn't look crimped tight and gave it a light tug and out it came. It's not like I'm just tugging on wires either, I'm pulling on the connectors at their base. And I've never had this happen on an OE Volvo harness. Plastic connectors disintegrating with age, of course. This harness is going to be a basketcase later down the road or maybe right now. I might just switch it back to an OE harness that doesn't probably have 150+ loose connections.
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Old 03-05-2019, 11:55 PM   #57
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Ahh, reading comprehension fail on my part. Sorry, been really worn out lately. So you're doing a B230FT / LH 2.4 into a 245? Is this the harness you got? https://www.240turbo.com/volvoharnes...lhconvharness2
https://www.davebarton.com/pdf/Harne...convHi-LoZ.pdf

Anyways check here, this is what I was referencing --> https://www.myvolvolibrary.info/Tech...ction-3-39.pdf Page "48"

See the power going into the injectors and being grounded by the ECU at pin 18? Power to the injectors is always on if the ignition is switched on, but the ECU toggles the ground to fire them. I'm suggesting there's a short-to-ground somewhere between the injectors and that pin #18 that's forcing the injectors open.

You need to get a proper voltmeter and test the pin on the ECU itself for continuity / resistance to real ground and also the wire leading to pin #18 itself for a short to ground. I think.

Check this one too, 1993 240 wiring diagram http://turbosti.com/volvo-manuals-01..._240__1993.pdf Page 22. It lacks the signaling in/out that the one up above shows.
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Old 03-06-2019, 12:15 AM   #58
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Oh my, sorry to hear that it was almost working and then misbehaved again. At least you're not paying a shop $100/hour for them to have the same problems, and to eventually return it to you un-fixed but with a big bill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GolfClapperX View Post
...The wires pull out of the pins every time you try and unplug a connector, and you have to unclip/remove the pins and re-crimp them. Both wires just loosely fell out of the ECT connector, and earlier while removing pin 18 on the ECU, I noticed that wire didn't look crimped tight and gave it a light tug and out it came.
Contact DB and explain the wires pulling out. Sure sounds like it the harness was not manufactured correctly. For good quality crimps, you should be able to pull mighty hard on them without the wire pulling out. (Don't do this with the crimp still in the connector -- the little wings that hold it in the connector are not rated for high pulling forces.) Here's a link to the Molex Industrial Crimp Quality Handobook. Page 24 has a table of minimum wire pull forces versus wire size. For the harness, the smaller wires are probably 18ga or 16ga, so 20 or 30 pounds of force min (which feels like you're going to snap the wire first). http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/ats/TM-640160065.pdf

I still think your ECU is suspect. I'd swap it for a different one if you can, just to get it out of the picture for now.
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Old 03-06-2019, 12:27 AM   #59
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That's true. I've been unable to fathom letting a shop touch any of my cars for at least 10 years now, so at least I'm experienced enough to make that work. With about 8 cars that I'm unable to part with until I die, newest one being an '87, I do need experience and patience. Wiring has always been my weak point, obviously.

Yeah I contacted him. I'm trying not to be too irritated over spending a week's pay on a harness that sucks worse than the original one and installing it, etc. I don't think I'll get another new one, even if the loose crimps are fixed. This is because right after I swapped this engine in, I now remember that this is exactly how it ran. It would start and idle really choppy with black smoke, but it would idle. Ridiculously enough, that was with a harness I had pieced together from the 940 donor. Since then I installed that Picknpull 89 240 harness, and now the DB one. And I'm back to square one...
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Old 03-06-2019, 12:37 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by rallydallas View Post
Ahh, reading comprehension fail on my part. Sorry, been really worn out lately. So you're doing a B230FT / LH 2.4 into a 245? Is this the harness you got? https://www.240turbo.com/volvoharnes...lhconvharness2
https://www.davebarton.com/pdf/Harne...convHi-LoZ.pdf

Anyways check here, this is what I was referencing --> https://www.myvolvolibrary.info/Tech...ction-3-39.pdf Page "48"

See the power going into the injectors and being grounded by the ECU at pin 18? Power to the injectors is always on if the ignition is switched on, but the ECU toggles the ground to fire them. I'm suggesting there's a short-to-ground somewhere between the injectors and that pin #18 that's forcing the injectors open.

You need to get a proper voltmeter and test the pin on the ECU itself for continuity / resistance to real ground and also the wire leading to pin #18 itself for a short to ground. I think.

Check this one too, 1993 240 wiring diagram http://turbosti.com/volvo-manuals-01..._240__1993.pdf Page 22. It lacks the signaling in/out that the one up above shows.
Yep, that's the harness I got. It did seem like the wire going to pin 18 was grounded even with the ignition off. But since it has basically the same symptoms it did with the last harness, I guess both harnesses would have to be shorted similarly. I'm pretty sure (?) I tested everything the way you suggested...

I don't like to say this out loud but I am using one of those $4 Harbor Freight multimeters. I know everyone will say they won't do the job but I think for very basic stuff they do. It's a glorified test light.

Thanks for the links!
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Old 03-06-2019, 11:46 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by GolfClapperX View Post
Yep, that's the harness I got. It did seem like the wire going to pin 18 was grounded even with the ignition off. But since it has basically the same symptoms it did with the last harness, I guess both harnesses would have to be shorted similarly. I'm pretty sure (?) I tested everything the way you suggested...

I don't like to say this out loud but I am using one of those $4 Harbor Freight multimeters. I know everyone will say they won't do the job but I think for very basic stuff they do. It's a glorified test light.

Thanks for the links!
Well I gotta say if pin 18 is grounded even with the ignition off then that does not sound good for your ECU!

I'd think the Harbor Freight multi would be good enough!
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Old 03-06-2019, 07:28 PM   #62
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I'm going to go get the spare ECU this evening. I just pulled the plugs to un-hydrolock it. I turned it over for a while with the plugs out and the injectors unplugged, then I decided to see if I had leaky injectors which I've already checked a few times. I pulled the rail and re-grounded the injectors, plugged them in, turned on the ignition and pressure-washed the car next to it with gasoline. Injectors 1,3, and 4 spray gas so hard once the key is turned on it's unbelievable. Injector 2 does nothing for some reason. All 4 injectors have 12v with ignition on. I haven't tried swapping the number 2 injector for another one to see if it's a clogged injector, but I really doubt it. I think it has to be the ECU at this point. Famous last words...again.
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Old 03-06-2019, 11:35 PM   #63
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So I put the other ECU in and... it runs smooth! No smoke either. It did stall after a couple minutes but I'll figure that out later. Probably just out of gas from dumping it all into the crankcase and out the exhaust. I'd mess with it more tonight but it's a little late and right now the car just has a downpipe. It does at least look like the ECU was definitely the problem like you guys kept telling me. It took almost two hours to get from N. Dallas to S. Dallas, and I thought I was leaving towards the end of rush hour. And that's why I procrastinated about going and getting this stupid ECU.

So first I plugged the injectors in and grounded them with the rail removed like before, and tried turning the ignition on with the new ECU. Before, 3 injectors were spraying fuel like crazy. Now, no injectors were spraying but the pumps were still running continuously. I tried bumping the starter a little to see if the injectors sprayed at all much less in a controlled manner, and they did in fact appear to work correctly. So I put the rail back in and started it up. Idle was a bit low but smooth. Sounded really good. Tomorrow I'll change the oil again and then poke around some more, see if I can get it up to temperature.

I'm pretty happy! Thanks everyone for the help! And of course, it's always possible that the new ECU will fry itself tomorrow.

By the way, old ECU from 93 945T donor was a 937 model, new one from 94 945T is a 967. What's the difference?
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Old 03-06-2019, 11:56 PM   #64
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Well as long as you don't run without the resistor pack / ballast resistors I think you won't have any problems.

Let me quote you and also bobxyz:

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Originally Posted by GolfClapperX View Post
I've also tried different injectors - right now it's running the correct injectors and resistor pack that came with this 93 B230FT, but I've tried N/A injectors with no resistors just to see if it would idle at all. No luck though, same symptoms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobxyz View Post
How good was your original resistor pack wiring - are you sure that nothing was mis-wired or shorted out before you tried starting it for the first time? If you tried to start it and the ECU side of the injectors was shorted to +12, or the resistor pack wasn't correct, you may have damaged the ECU. I'm not sure how quickly the damage occurs -- I don't know if it would have started and fried in minutes or only a few seconds.

For repair instructions, see:
http://ipdown.net/jetronic.info/tiki...er+Replacement

You'll need a TIP122 ($0.55) [the original is an ON823, or similar darlington transistor, and the TIP122 is generic substitute]:
https://www.jameco.com/z/TIP122--Maj...lk_120416.html
So if you go to that HOWTO http://ipdown.net/jetronic.info/tiki...er+Replacement at the very top it says

Quote:
If you accidentally use low-Z (low impedance) injectors without a resistor pack, the injector driver will supply too much current and subsequently cook itself. Symptoms of this are a car that won't run (or only runs briefly with the injectors disconnected) and a crankcase full of gasoline.
These Volvo injectors are certainly Low-Z since they all come with a resistor pack, this means the resistance is in the pack and not in the injector. If you run them without the resistor then the circuit will be effectively UNLIMITED so will fry the drivers supplying the power. High-Z injectors have higher resistance internally so do not need the resistor pack. (http://fuelinjectorclinic.com/faqs/)

Anyways, awesome that you figured it out! And replace that stuck injector!
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Old 03-07-2019, 12:31 AM   #65
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Back when I tried the injectors without the resistor pack, I was using injectors from a non-turbo, yellowtops. I thought they would be High-Z? Anyway, I obviously fried this ECU somehow no matter what because it worked fine in the donor car.

From what I could tell, all 4 injectors looked to be spraying nicely with this new ECU. I let them spray into a plastic container a little so I could watch. It's a mystery to me why only one was not firing before when they're wired to all fire together, but now all 4 appear to work. Maybe handling the injector connectors on this lovely harness was making an intermittent connection at that #2 injector. But yeah regardless I'll be triple checking everything like this and making sure it's all working right.

Since it basically works now I'm very apprehensive of switching back to the last harness, but I still think I'd trust it more than this DB one for futureproofness. I talked to him about it and I know it's not his fault, it's the people who put it together in the Netherlands. I was just annoyed before...the harness problem didn't help with my stress level on this project. But of course he wouldn't have the reputation he has if he had problems like this often.
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Old 03-07-2019, 12:38 AM   #66
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Back when I tried the injectors without the resistor pack, I was using injectors from a non-turbo, yellowtops. I thought they would be High-Z? Anyway, I obviously fried this ECU somehow no matter what because it worked fine in the donor car.

From what I could tell, all 4 injectors looked to be spraying nicely with this new ECU. I let them spray into a plastic container a little so I could watch. It's a mystery to me why only one was not firing before when they're wired to all fire together, but now all 4 appear to work. Maybe handling the injector connectors on this lovely harness was making an intermittent connection at that #2 injector. But yeah regardless I'll be triple checking everything like this and making sure it's all working right.

Since it basically works now I'm very apprehensive of switching back to the last harness, but I still think I'd trust it more than this DB one for futureproofness. I talked to him about it and I know it's not his fault, it's the people who put it together in the Netherlands. I was just annoyed before...the harness problem didn't help with my stress level on this project. But of course he wouldn't have the reputation he has if he had problems like this often.
Oh, well good point. I didn't know that since I haven't had a non turbo since like high school! Looking at some schematics you are right about the ballast. Only thing I can think of is maybe measure those yellow tops. The faq says:
Quote:
If the resistance is between 8 and 16 Ohm you have high impedance injectors.
You're probably right though so I don't really know what caused the inj drivers to blow up then 8(
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Old 03-07-2019, 12:43 AM   #67
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I'm sure I swapped various injector related wires around in some desperately idiotic way. I don't really remember now, there has been a lot of beer since then. On the bright side I think this whole experience has made my slightly less dumb. I have another B230FT awaiting my other 85, and that one's an M47 244 so it should be pretty fun too. My hope is that I've learned enough now to do that one without getting stuck.
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Old 03-07-2019, 12:54 AM   #68
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Great news! Just need to find the emoji for the Happy Volvo Dance.

Since it sounds like you have the tool to de-pin the connectors easily, I'd certainly de-pin and inspect the crimps on the injector that wasn't firing.

I'm also guessing that the brief period where it ran with the new harness and old ECU was due to the poor crimp on the injector driver pin -- poor crimp causing extra voltage loss, resulting in not fully open injectors, which cut down the flow enough to not flood it immediately.

937 vs 967 looks like the 967 is just a slightly newer B230FT turbo ECU - see: https://www.volvoclub.org.uk/faq/Eng...ReferenceChart

The turbo greentops are low-z, the N/A orangetops are high-z (no r-pack needed)
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Old 03-07-2019, 12:55 AM   #69
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I applaud your drive to upgrade these 240s 8)
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Old 03-08-2019, 08:09 PM   #70
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I applaud your drive to upgrade these 240s 8)
Thanks!

So here's today's mystery. It starts and idles 'pretty' smooth but not perfectly smooth. The problem is still with the number 2 injector. With the old ECU, injectors 1,3, and 4 were all pressurewashers and 2 did nothing. Now with the new ECU, Injectors 1,3, and 4 pulse perfectly but 2 is a pressurewasher. I tried switching injectors 1 and 2 and the problem stays with the #2 spot on the rail. Any ideas?

Here's a video:
https://youtu.be/-1piDEDGCko
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Old 03-08-2019, 08:47 PM   #71
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#2 mis-wired in harness???

With engine off, unplug all 4 injectors. The ECU side of each injector connector should be wired together; the other side goes to individual resistors in the R-pack. Measure pin1 to pin1 to pin1 to pin 1, then do the same for pin 2s. One set of measurements should all be ~0 ohms, and the other set should all be ~18 ohms (I'm guessing a bit on this value, but it would be twice the resistance of a single resistor out of the pack).

Edit: if the pins going to the r-pack don't all match each other, unplug your rpack and measure each of the 4 resistor pins to the common center pin on the R-pack itself. All 4 should match (guess of 9 ohms each). Also measure each pin to the metal cage - all should be open (no connection)

Edit#2: skip the above, just remove your resistor pack and inspect it carefully. I'm pretty sure you'll find that the injector side of the resistor for injector#2 is shorted to the metal cage.

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Old 03-08-2019, 10:52 PM   #72
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#2 mis-wired in harness???

With engine off, unplug all 4 injectors. The ECU side of each injector connector should be wired together; the other side goes to individual resistors in the R-pack. Measure pin1 to pin1 to pin1 to pin 1, then do the same for pin 2s. One set of measurements should all be ~0 ohms, and the other set should all be ~18 ohms (I'm guessing a bit on this value, but it would be twice the resistance of a single resistor out of the pack).

Edit: if the pins going to the r-pack don't all match each other, unplug your rpack and measure each of the 4 resistor pins to the common center pin on the R-pack itself. All 4 should match (guess of 9 ohms each). Also measure each pin to the metal cage - all should be open (no connection)

Edit#2: skip the above, just remove your resistor pack and inspect it carefully. I'm pretty sure you'll find that the injector side of the resistor for injector#2 is shorted to the metal cage.

Ok, bear with me on electrical terminology and basic skill. So for the record my cute little Harbor Freight meter, when set to ohms, reads "1" when nothing is being tested. I started with the first test that you suggested.

Injector 1 pin 1 to injector 2 pin 1 = 7 ohms (slowly dropping)
Injector 2 pin 1 to injector 3 pin 1 = 7 ohms
Injector 3 pin 1 to injector 4 pin 1 = 13 ohms (what?)

Injector 1 pin 2 to injector 2 pin 2 = "1" (nothing?)
Injector 2 pin 2 to injector 3 pin 2 = "1"
Injector 3 pin 2 to injector 4 pin 2 = 8 ohms

I removed the resistor pack and it looks like crap in general, to me everything looks rusted and shorted to everything. I have not yet taken a closer look at the specific resistor for injector 2. About to go look at that. Using the multimeter is something that won't get the cops called on me for doing on my driveway at night.
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Old 03-09-2019, 12:39 AM   #73
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I didn't finish the testing tonight afterall. Will do in the morning. But it sounds to me like you're saying the resistor pack is suspect, so maybe I'll just swap it for another one to be completely sure. I will be where my 94 945t is tomorrow, working on a family member's 940 which I'm responsible for putting them in and therefore feel responsible for maintaining, but anyway I'll be able to get that resistor pack while I'm there.
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Old 03-09-2019, 01:21 AM   #74
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Well, I'm confused by your measurements. They're not what I expected. Out of the bunch, the only one that seems good, as in the circuit is good, is the 13ohms.

The pin 1 measurements that include injector 2 are 7ohms and would make sense if the injector 2 rpack resistor was shorted to ground. The pin2 measurements don't make sense.

If the r-pack is still unplugged, can you measure each injector pin to ground? All should be open circuit. You could also try visually tracing the pin 2 wires (if you can bunch up, or roll over, the protective sleeving to expose enough of the harness). The pin 2 wires should all be crimped together to what was originally a white/green wire to the ECU.
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Old 03-09-2019, 12:17 PM   #75
GolfClapperX
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Both with the R-pack unplugged and plugged in, ohming pins of and 1 of all 4 injectors to ground, my meter just reads "1". I guess this means they're an open circuit? Not sure. I'll try to look beneath the sleeving to make sure all the pin 2 wires are crimped together, while trying not to make this new harness look like a complete hackjob.
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