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Old 11-16-2020, 09:31 PM   #1
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Default Before I accidently set it on fire . . . again.

I thought I would give the poor little Bertone one last chance.





After the third fuel distributor rebuild it started instantly, idled fine just below 1k rpm but still had no power.

My grandson was up again for the continuation of his very old car education. As above it just wasn't right and I continued to questioned the fuel system. We took the entire ram horn and throttle body along with the fuel distributor and metering plate assembly off.

First, that effort was to get to the distributor to confirm #1 rotor position to crank pulley timing mark. That turned out to be fine. Rotor was at the distributor body mark. Crank pully was at about 8 degrees on the timing gauge. A little twist of the distributor would resolve that.



At 30 years old, and several cars, he had never seen an ignition distributor. Now I had to explain all about something that he would never need to know again.

Putting it back together grandson pointed out that he could see light between the big rubber isolation gasket and the throttle body.



Indeed, while tightened down tight the connector was not sealing on the atmosphere side of the throttle plates. It was as though that the internal metal structure of the connection was bent. The middle was sealed, both the outer edges were open perhaps a 1/16".

Used enough Permatex grey gasket sealant to close that.

Now it is all together, timing is about right and idle is 2k rpms indicating a big vacuum leak.

Guess I will give it another day's effort before accidently setting it on fire.
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Last edited by TestPoint; 11-17-2020 at 07:19 PM..
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Old 11-16-2020, 11:15 PM   #2
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Quote:
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Rotor was at the distributor body mark. Crank pully was at about 8 degrees on the timing gauge. A little twist of the distributor would resolve that.
Assuming no points...and a CPS is used...Total timing advance has a range of X degrees...and rotor should be firing electrical energy before number one's distributor-cap terminal, at number one terminal, and a bit after passing number one terminal.

I installed a B23F in a 93-940 with Rex-I/Regina. So, I brought engine up to TDC on number one, and rotated the rotor's position backwards-via moving distributor-relative to distributor-cap's number one terminal.

There is a manual that describes relative degrees on rotor position somewhere. Cam/Distributor is moving at 50% speed of crank, so crank degrees are not the same as distributor's. IIRC....8° crank, then 4° distributor. So visualize your total timing advance degrees over distributor-cap's number one terminal.

Maybe spark energy is firing next plug mostly....no power.
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Old 11-17-2020, 07:15 AM   #3
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[QUOTE=84B23F;6130538]Assuming no points...and a CPS is used.....QUOTE]

What is CPS?
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Old 11-17-2020, 04:02 PM   #4
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What is CPS?
Crankshaft position sensor, but his rig may not have it, which if so, use the timing light.

Increased RPM at idle can suggest timing is advanced past its set point...vacuum leak...brake booster leaking...etc.

Don't know how timing/crank gears are setup on that engine...but if the tooth alignments are off, it may not run right.
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Old 11-17-2020, 04:23 PM   #5
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Old 11-17-2020, 07:54 PM   #6
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Has the picture posting changed on the forum? I can only post too big and too small. Seems like RWC has the same problem.

Through thousands of picture posts on a Jaguar forum everything was taken care of via the vbulletin forum software. You didn't have to size it correctly on the hosting site. The pictures were automatically sized and reduced in storage size to reasonably fit the forum.

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Old 11-18-2020, 10:25 AM   #7
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I can visualize what that pic represents, so without seeing a manual for that engine, I would:

1. Remove sparks and valve covers (or access to seeing cams' positions)

2. Rotate engine to 0° position (TDC) on crankshaft, and confirm two pistons are at their highest position by rotating crank back/forth (purpose here is to check to see if harmonic balancer has slipped).

3. At 0° crankshaft position (TDC), see if one cam is spot on, and rotate crank 360° and check other side's cam position.

[If LH 2.1/2.2 is used, a timing light is used to adjust distributor's position; I suspect rotor's position may be before the distributor's "TDC" mark..this line scribed on distributor may have been used in point's days...not relevant in EFI vehicles. Bosch may have used this housing on previous vehicles with points, and didn't retool their castings for EFI vehicles.]

4. As RPMs increase, more spark energy is used. Coil, sparks, spark gap, distributor cap, rotor, and spark-wires must be of OEM specs; all related terminals cleaned (except Chrysler box's terminal, if it has one). I'd put a battery jumper wire to coil's positive side, and see what happens, if LH 2.2. No change, replace hall effect sensor in distributor, or use a different distributor as a test.

I think I still have a Chrysler box for LH 2.1 (1984 240)...just cost of shipping. Volvo suggested not to unplug them...but if done, new pins were suggested. Chrysler box is used for advancing timing and grounding out coil....timing advance should be checked. Myself, I'd junk this Bosch distributor and Chrysler box and buy a new distributor that replaces this Bosch-Chrysler system...if possible.

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Old 11-18-2020, 01:41 PM   #8
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Tom....

Still slow she is...

Monitor the O2 sensor when giving it some boot... It will stay in closed loop until full load enrichment. You will see it switch on your Voltmeter. Full throttle enrichment will make one volt steady. Is doing that? You have fuel.

Ignition timing is a matter of engine speed to number of degrees of advance for mechanical timing.
Verify that vacuum advance (retard too) is correct.

You found a big false air leak. BabySteps! CO has to be adjusted after solving that leak.

Are you absolutely certain exhaust is not restricted? Measure back pressure at the exhaust tap in the head pipe used to balance idle CO.

Keep in mind we got 125HP in standard form from that anemic bent six when new. That is not to be confused with exciting.

Did you solder up the throttle plates? Helps.

They are more amusing with a 4.10 final drive but will yell on the freeway.
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Old 11-18-2020, 03:44 PM   #9
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Hi John,

You have been with me for about 7 years on this car. Thanks for sticking around!

We eliminated the exhaust system about 6 of those 7 years ago. Pressure at the O2 sensor was about 2 psi. Shop vacuum blew right through it just like a hose extension.

I took the fuel system apart again, for about the 4th time, to get to the distributor for one last verification. Rotor at distributor body mark puts crank timing mark at about 8 degrees. That would seem to confirm timing is good or at least close.

Found a big air leak but it was on the atmosphere side of throttle plates so that may have distorted the throttle a bit but doesn't explain the 2k rpm idle that I probably installed. It was idling at about the 950 before this work.

I need to fix this vacuum/idle issue and really get it out on the road. Comments on lack of power have been from driving it back and fourth in the parking area.
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Old 11-18-2020, 09:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 84B23F View Post
I can visualize what that pic represents, so without seeing a manual for that engine, I would:

1. Remove sparks and valve covers (or access to seeing cams' positions)

2. Rotate engine to 0° position (TDC) on crankshaft, and confirm two pistons are at their highest position by rotating crank back/forth (purpose here is to check to see if harmonic balancer has slipped).

3. At 0° crankshaft position (TDC), see if one cam is spot on, and rotate crank 360° and check other side's cam position.

[If LH 2.1/2.2 is used, a timing light is used to adjust distributor's position; I suspect rotor's position may be before the distributor's "TDC" mark..this line scribed on distributor may have been used in point's days...not relevant in EFI vehicles. Bosch may have used this housing on previous vehicles with points, and didn't retool their castings for EFI vehicles.]

4. As RPMs increase, more spark energy is used. Coil, sparks, spark gap, distributor cap, rotor, and spark-wires must be of OEM specs; all related terminals cleaned (except Chrysler box's terminal, if it has one). I'd put a battery jumper wire to coil's positive side, and see what happens, if LH 2.2. No change, replace hall effect sensor in distributor, or use a different distributor as a test.

I think I still have a Chrysler box for LH 2.1 (1984 240)...just cost of shipping. Volvo suggested not to unplug them...but if done, new pins were suggested. Chrysler box is used for advancing timing and grounding out coil....timing advance should be checked. Myself, I'd junk this Bosch distributor and Chrysler box and buy a new distributor that replaces this Bosch-Chrysler system...if possible.
Keep in mind this car has the PVR b28f v6 engine, no cps, ca.1981
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Old 11-18-2020, 09:48 PM   #11
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. . . and that I have had this engine down to the timing chains verifying crank/piston TDC/cam/distributor timing. From crank shaft to timing chain to cams to piston TDC to distributor rotor to the bolt-on timing gauge. Which was aligned last.

The only thing I found in all that was that Elroy installed the distributor one tooth off and there was a heater hose clamp under the valve cover. Oh, and that he attempted to adjust the distributor timing to the #4 cylinder. This is probably the only engine anywhere that has the #1 cylinder at the rear left rear. When I first checked the ignition timing lo those seven years ago at the correct #1 the timing was about 10 degrees BEFORE TDC. Ran a little strange.

This current effort only included timing as an one-last-time verification.

Unfortunately, it resulted in an installed vacuum leak that I will fix again.
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Old 11-18-2020, 09:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nel621 View Post
PVR b28f v6 engine, no cps, ca.1981
Well yes, understood Commander Cody.

So, it was about 1969 when a friend had his 389 Goat engine rebuilt and pumped up to 12:1 compression; he got the cam gear off one tooth-unknown to him, and since it had no real power, he sold it to a person who figured out how he screwed the pooch. Even when my 1957 Ford's timing chain slipped a tooth, it had lower power. Screwing the timing-chain pooch is old news, btw.

Having bicycle chains on that engine must have some type of tension setup...a spring setup would have more resistance to keeping chain firm than a hydraulic setup via oil pressure. Oil pressure based have been known to cause timing chain to jump a tooth, and on an interference engine, that's all folks.
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Old 11-18-2020, 10:05 PM   #13
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Quote:
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. . .this engine down..
Has it ever run correctly?

If mechanicals are good, then ignition/Fuel is/are the issues.
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Old 11-18-2020, 10:39 PM   #14
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Footnote Based Upon LH Jetronic for B21F

Earlier models used this FPR
35 psi
0 280 160 214

Later models used
43.5 psi
0 280 160 213
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Old 11-19-2020, 08:49 AM   #15
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It has never run correctly in my 7+ years of ownership. Elroy, the ASA certified oil change technician had his way with this thing for a year trying to get it to run after 19 years in a hay barn. I've been close, several times, but then something else will fail. Nineteen years sheltered only from rain will do wonders to the electrical system in these old cars.

K-jet uses 70 psi as system pressure, variable pressure to the injectors.

I keep telling myself that this is just a hobby . . . this is just a hobby . . . this is just a hobby . . . this is just a hobby . . . this is just a hobby . . .
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Old 11-19-2020, 12:15 PM   #16
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Quote:
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K-jet
Before Uncle Sam mandated a fuel injection cleaner in automotive fuels, I had to use an injector cleaner like Techron Fuel Injector Cleaner in my 1981 VW Rabbit pickup.

Amoco (Standard Oil) was the only station in town which had Bosch/VW approved fuel, but higher priced then. IIRC, I had to buy their Premium fuel to get this treated fuel.

So, when those injectors got fouled, which it took me awhile to figure out what was happening, engine would run like a dog. When I got wind of Amoco's treated fuel, I discovered just one full tankful would eradicate this issue.

Problem with CIS is only a small fuel amount is passing thru the orifices. It don't take much to plug them up...over and over, I had this injection issue...front end fell out of this Rabbit, and I called a wrecker...very common with that unibody vehicle.

VW Rabbit used a RPM Relay to turn on fuel pump(s) [don't recall]...I suppose your vehicle does too. Previous owner sold it because it would run, and didn't run...RPM Relay was the issue. I used a jumper wire at relay terminals, and hot wired it to ID this problem, then got an used junkyard relay...issue gone.

If injectors were pulled, with vehicle outdoors, I'd do spray/volumetric tests...or take injectors to a shop to flow them.



I bought a new set of injectors, and they too fouled out in a short time period.
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Old 11-19-2020, 12:43 PM   #17
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Footnotes:

New "cleansed" fuel lines from filter to injectors may be required to eradicate this issue.

Of course, lifting up on that "air mass" plate will increase fuel flow. I think a magnet can be used, iirc.
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Old 11-19-2020, 06:51 PM   #18
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The fuel lines have been flushed at least 3 times. Flow testing done a few times also.

Injector flow testing after 2nd fuel distributor rebuild by commercial shop:



After my personal rebuild:



Expanded story starts here: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showpo...&postcount=735
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Old 11-20-2020, 02:16 AM   #19
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Quote:
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The fuel lines have been flushed at least 3 times.
Considering 1981 VW Rabbit & 1981 262C Bertone Coupe have Bosch CIS in common, and I had injector issues, confirmed, I would not be surprised if both vehicles got similar vintage fuel lines from Bosch, or whoever was contracted out. Between these two engines, yours is 127.5 cc "bigger" per cylinder, which only means a pinch more fuel is passed thru each injector. If injectors were cleaned at a shop, and vehicle ran like a dog aftewards, then the issue is not here..

Engine horsepower is related to fuel, spark, air, and ignition timing (assuming cam/crank in sync). So, when accelerator is pressed to floor, say at 20 mph, what happens?

I had a plain CIS setup, where yours is CIS-lambda, and I suspect the Frequency Valve has been evaluated, along with O2 sensor. Both need to be monitored when driving.

I have no idea which type of O2 sensor was used, or if it was heated...but a heated O2 would be better...I'm only aware of two different types in these vintage vehicles.

I had a single cold start injector that I could manually control via momentary push switch, which would improve acceleration via tapping it. IIRC, this injector had 12 volts powering it, so the switch I added was a ground. Hence, if yours has one, a simple experiment...rather than cut existing wires, find a plug to fit it, and wire it up.

Aside - I'd be looking to see if MicroSquirt/MegaSquirt could be used to 'drive' FV via MAP/O2 sensors if CIS was to be retained. I don't know about frequency or pulse duration (ground I assume) used by K-Jetronic control unit and if Micro/Mega could conform to K-Jetronic control unit's ground timing parameters. On the other hand, if K-Control Box can be opened up, a electronic shop tech might be able to evaluate it for failing caps. An old school radio/TV tech will know how to evaluate...few/far between. I know of one, but...

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Old 11-20-2020, 07:38 AM   #20
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Silly thought occurred to me based on finding the hose bringing air into the filter box completely stuffed by mice. Obviously this wasn't garaged, but mice can get in, right? This was a k-jet turbo car. I have no idea how the air is brought into your PRV's airbox.

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Old 11-20-2020, 09:59 AM   #21
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It hasn't had the filter/ductwork on in my time as daddy. Found it in the trunk.

Ignition timing appears to be good from the crank to the timing gauge. Blue spark at plugs. Fuel seems close. Cranks, runs.

Really haven't devoted much time to this lately. Life is a little demanding at the moment. I'll get it running shortly (he said after 7 years).
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Old 11-20-2020, 10:10 AM   #22
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Spark Timing Advance - This has been tested with hand-held vacuum-pump? Which ignition system was used...Bosch...Pic or OEM-#?

Coil - It must be to OEM specs...81 Rabbit had a fricken hot spark...I put in an aftermarket rotor before taking a trip, and it melted when on a trip to New Mexico, around midnight, some 10 miles away from a town...bummer.

Spark Wires - Again, OEM specs
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Old 11-20-2020, 10:44 AM   #23
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Quote:
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Blue spark at plugs..
This test above only shows ignition side works, not under compression, which requires more spark energy.
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Old 11-20-2020, 01:37 PM   #24
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MEGASQUIRT, as has been suggested several times. Tom I think is a purist.... he wants his Model T to run with Henry's design systems in place.

Braver man than I am.....would have ripped off the entire KJet CIS system, and whatever spark the Bertone is using. I think in an earlier thread I read that these engines were later fitted with EFI..... my goodness, I would have gutted the KJet and converted straight away.

Good luck Tom, we keep pulling for you....... I really need to find you when I'm in Blue Ridge next time.
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Old 11-20-2020, 02:26 PM   #25
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Is this the firing order? So on driver side at firewall is number one?

1-6-3-5-2-4

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