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Old 11-20-2020, 02:44 PM   #26
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Bring me up to speed here: "The most basic of which was a breaker-type ignition using a single distributor with two rotors and two coils for each cylinder bank due to the odd-firing pattern. Timing of the two cylinder banks had to be performed separately. Alternatively, a breakerless distributor system was developed,"

A single coil and rotor...if so, that would be a specific coil that could fully recharge quickly
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Old 11-20-2020, 02:58 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by DET17 View Post
Tom I think is a purist....
He doesn't want all that horsepower...a real fuel burner:-)

"PRV came in a variety of displacements ranging from 2.4 to 3.0 litres....Peugeot developed 24-valve variants...WM Peugeot P88 sports racer. It developed over 900hp (up to 950 hp) with dual overhead cams and turbocharging – taking the car to the 253 mph course speed record at LeMans that year."
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Old 11-20-2020, 03:39 PM   #28
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She's a witch. Burn her! We should check to see if she is a witch. See if she floats.

Sure hope you get this thing figured out. Running with no power does seem like the ignition system should be checked for advance.
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Old 11-20-2020, 08:33 PM   #29
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That was an interesting article on the PRV engine.

My '81 is a 2.8L Bosch K-jet, contactless distributor, Lambda controlled version. This combination only lasted a couple years. And yes, almost everything that moves or sparks has been replaced substantially with OEM/Bosch stuff.

And yes, the #1 cylinder is the left rear one. I cannot imagine the time Elroy spent trying to adjust electrical timing. The crank pulley has two timing marks so a knowledgeable technician should be able to time from either #1 or #6. My problem was that I had one of these cars in the mid '80's and understood the timing issue therefore I saw it as all screwed up. So screwed up that I went to the effort to pull the front cover off the engine and verify that the crank/cam/distributor alignment was correct.

When I first checked the timing based on the true #1 cylinder it was set for about 10 degrees after TDC. That was complicated by the fact that the distributor was one tooth off. I don't know if that was just an accident or Elroy was trying to get it in time beyond the adjustment capabilities of the distributor.

Now it has morphed into an experience with a 30 year old grandson currently unemployed due to the covid virus and his employment field associated with sports. Not that he will ever have a need to diagnose a distributor issue but he will be able to say that he has seen one. I told him I would give him my 18 year old Jaguar XK8 if he would help me get the Bertone running and that seems to have provided some motivation.



Anyway, this has been truly a retirement hobby project that has provide 7+ years of entertainment. That's why I don't really get frustrated as much as enjoying solving all these incomprehensible problems.

Thanks for your kind attention, support and commiseration.
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Last edited by TestPoint; 11-21-2020 at 08:25 AM..
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Old 11-20-2020, 10:54 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TestPoint View Post
timing based on the true #1 cylinder it was set for about 10 degrees before TDC.
In distributor days...timing light determines distributor's final position...I couldn't find timing specs, but 10° BTDC seems reasonable.

Interesting how Crank-CAMs are setup

Video: Delorean prv cam timing in car
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Old 11-20-2020, 11:14 PM   #31
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Mike (Owner) of DeLorean Midwest could fix it: There is a Knowledge Base at this site.
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Old 11-20-2020, 11:15 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TestPoint View Post
I told him I would give him my 18 year old Jaguar XK8 if he would help me get the Bertone
biggest trap ever
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Old 11-21-2020, 08:23 AM   #33
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[QUOTE=TestPoint;6131702]

When I first checked the timing based on the true #1 cylinder it was set for about 5 degrees after TDC.

The https://support.delorean.com/KB/browse.aspx link referenced above does, indeed, have a good knowledge base page. It clearly describes all the symptoms I have had with fuel delivery.

Last edited by TestPoint; 11-23-2020 at 07:11 PM..
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Old 11-21-2020, 10:37 AM   #34
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Ignition timing appears to be good...
That video seems to be explicit....no gauge was used in it...just "for your eyes only." He suggested the manual suggested rotating the crank 120° but this seems to be a way to screw the pooch.

Via another vid, I saw a vacuum pot hanging off of distributor that looked Bosch-ish. Timing advance on that V6-PRV-engine's distributor would be done by a metal plate below the rotor that would rotate with changes in vacuum from intake.

With time, the vacuum pot shoots craps, vacuum line is blocked (no vacuum to this pot), Hall sensor's wires are not sending full current to ignition module, and/or the rotating plate is stuck in one position.

In point days, the point's wire going to coil would be broken (open circuit) inside the wire's protective sheathing, due to rotary motions of this plate. ,So, a mechanic could not see this, and the engine may run, and then quit, and then run again.

So, if a hall sensor (or whatever is there) is rotating on a plate via vacuum pot, I can't say how this would affect this type of ignition module that was on my VW Rabbit.

Thus, vacuum pot must rotate that plate, there must be a vacuum line from intake manifold feeding it that works, and if OEM hall sensor is in distributor, it might be wise to get a new one since its wires may be somewhat broken internally.
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Old 11-21-2020, 11:12 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack View Post
biggest trap ever
Here's how your keep your Jaguar XK8

Hook distributor's vacuum-pot's vacuum-line directly to intake manifold, so when checking timing, timing is at full advance...in effect, there is no timing advance...and car runs like a dog.

In distributors with vacuum pots having a single vacuum line going to this pot, timing at crank is checked by disconnecting the vacuum line to distributor's vacuum-pot at idle RPM.

These engines had ported vacuum and direct intake vacuum ports (like used on brake booster). If direct intake vacuum is hooked to a distributor's pot, it will run like a dog, and not have timing advance.

"Ported vacuum is vacuum that is low at idle and increases as you give it gas. Attached to your distributor it will cause the vacuum advance to move quickly to increase performance and drop off when you let off on the gas for a smoother idle. Ported vacuum is taken from above the throttle plate."
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Old 11-22-2020, 12:16 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by 84B23F View Post
That video seems to be explicit....no gauge was used in it...just "for your eyes only." He suggested the manual suggested rotating the crank 120° but this seems to be a way to screw the pooch.

Via another vid, I saw a vacuum pot hanging off of distributor that looked Bosch-ish. Timing advance on that V6-PRV-engine's distributor would be done by a metal plate below the rotor that would rotate with changes in vacuum from intake.

With time, the vacuum pot shoots craps, vacuum line is blocked (no vacuum to this pot), Hall sensor's wires 'Pulse generator' in this distributor... Hall Effect got used in more modern systems. All analog in this one! are not sending full current to ignition module, and/or the rotating plate is stuck in one position.

In point days, the point's wire going to coil would be broken (open circuit) inside the wire's protective sheathing, due to rotary motions of this plate. ,So, a mechanic could not see this, and the engine may run, and then quit, and then run again.

So, if a hall sensor (or whatever is there) is rotating on a plate via vacuum pot, I can't say how this would affect this type of ignition module that was on my VW Rabbit.

Thus, vacuum pot must rotate that plate, there must be a vacuum line from intake manifold feeding it that works, and if OEM hall sensor is in distributor, it might be wise to get a new one since its wires may be somewhat broken internally.
Fixed that for ya.
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Old 11-22-2020, 12:24 PM   #37
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Well yes, understood Commander Cody.

So, it was about 1969 when a friend had his 389 Goat engine rebuilt and pumped up to 12:1 compression; he got the cam gear off one tooth-unknown to him, and since it had no real power, he sold it to a person who figured out how he screwed the pooch. Even when my 1957 Ford's timing chain slipped a tooth, it had lower power. Screwing the timing-chain pooch is old news, btw.

Having bicycle chains on that engine must have some type of tension setup...a spring setup would have more resistance to keeping chain firm than a hydraulic setup via oil pressure. Oil pressure based have been known to cause timing chain to jump a tooth, and on an interference engine, that's all folks.
Chains for this one have metal with plastic slide chain guides for both sides with a ratcheting chain tensioner that is fed oil to tension it. Where chains are set up right... Tom had it apart and verified... That is ruled out.
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Old 11-22-2020, 12:30 PM   #38
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MEGASQUIRT, as has been suggested several times. Tom I think is a purist.... he wants his Model T to run with Henry's design systems in place.

Braver man than I am.....would have ripped off the entire KJet CIS system, and whatever spark the Bertone is using. I think in an earlier thread I read that these engines were later fitted with EFI..... my goodness, I would have gutted the KJet and converted straight away.

Good luck Tom, we keep pulling for you....... I really need to find you when I'm in Blue Ridge next time.
Years ago I gently suggested giving it the even-firing three liter PRV six fitted to an Eagle Premier/Dodge Monaco that with simple mods makes 200 horses. Alas; Tom wants her to be bone stock with all the joy(???) that goes along with. Having long since tossed all my PRV stuff.... I can no longer offer bits and pieces. Just unwelcome to unwanted advise to gentle jabs. Carry on!
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Old 11-22-2020, 12:36 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by 84B23F View Post
Bring me up to speed here: "The most basic of which was a breaker-type ignition using a single distributor with two rotors and two coils for each cylinder bank due to the odd-firing pattern. Timing of the two cylinder banks had to be performed separately. Alternatively, a breakerless distributor system was developed,"

A single coil and rotor...if so, that would be a specific coil that could fully recharge quickly
In the odd-firing PRV six the odd-firing got accomplished with an odd looking trigger wheel in the distributor.

Which helps me to ponder one....

Tom.... Do recheck that ignition timing is same-same for each bank of cylinders. Because Elroy.
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Old 11-23-2020, 03:10 PM   #40
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Fixed that for ya.
Well thx...as noted, I'm 'blind' with respect to components used. So if we assume mechanical timing (with stock cams) is spot on, and if fuel injectors' measured flow output at some test point is spot on, then consider:

1. Oxidation - All ignition system wiring/plugs must be cleaned up with electrical contact cleaner/etc. Vehicles positive/negative terminals at battery/engine cleaned, along with any grounding straps from engine to firewall/etc. One deceased mechanic I knew rebuilt an outboard marine engine, and oxidation kicked his butt...oxidation was the problem.

2. Bosch Pulse Generator - From Impulse Sender to Power Stage to Coil...all terminals/etc must be cleaned. I'm not familiar with its operation theory, but it needs to be scoped at coil's negative terminal, power stage, and impulse sender. Art might be able to fill electrical tidbits; my concern is if enough dwell time at coil, and consistent dwell pattern exists, is happening on coil, and if a full 12 volts is hooked to coil.

3. Distributor-Crank Timing Advance - Vacuum based timing advance (distributor's pot) must be seen on crank at idle RPM. Vehicles I've worked on with a single vacuum line requires no vacuum on distrib-pot when setting base timing. Timing should not change when vacuum line is reinserted onto distrib-pot at idle if a ported vacuum port is used.
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Old 11-23-2020, 11:03 PM   #41
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Footnote - DeLorean DMC-12 is equipped with a Bosch electronic ignition system ...alternating voltage is produced... The pules is transmitted to the ECU module and its voltage will vary between 0.3 volts and 100 volts depending on engine speed....The ECU module controls the operation of the ignition coil and determines the proper dwell angle.

A scope or automotive multi-meter is required to measure that AC voltage.

DeLorean DMC-12: Model years: 1981–1983

Tom - Does your engine use a vacuum pot?

Again, grounds/positives must be cleaned...a good looking ground may be oxidized.

Specs are at that cite.
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Old 11-24-2020, 11:15 AM   #42
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Footnote - A special coil was used...coil must be of OEM spec. Coils are designed around a specific dwell time interval. If dwell time on coil is within specs, and if existing ECU module is within specs, it might be possible to use a MSD setup...but they would have to be consulted.
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Old 11-25-2020, 12:57 PM   #43
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The distributor has only one hose on the pot. The hose routing diagram on the hood is not correct. Finally found the correct at the back of the climate control greenbook halfway through this adventure. At the moment it seems to run correctly except for a high idle most likely due to my last efforts.

I have been meaning to summarize about a thousand posts on this saga for some time. This is as good a time as any.

I bought this car from an eighty-six year old gentleman in April 2012 in non-operational condition. It was his wife's car and had resided in his hay barn for 19 years after she died of cancer. I visited the hay barn. For the last year of its hibernation it was in the care of Elroy, an ASE certified Master Oil Change Technician.

He changed all the belts, hoses spark plug wires, distributor cap and rotor, pressure pump and lift pump and had his way with most of the rest of the car. The rotors, calipers and pads had all been changed. He opened the fuel distributor and left it leaking. I found evidence that he had been lots of places. Washers were missing in the intake manifold and two bolts securing the throttle body were too long and bottomed into their holes without sealing the gaskets. Oh, and I found a coolant hose clamp under the left valve cover. He said he changed both the lift and pressure fuel pumps but never got it running.

It would run on starter fluid at this point. The fuel tank was a rusty mess and destroyed the lift pump even before I could get the old gas out of the tank. I pumped it dry twice with the lift pump, or so I thought. Elroy had bent the steel tubes down to the pick-up filter at about a 30-degree angle so there was always a gallon or two of old rusty gas below the filter screen.

New tank, new lift pump, new pressure pump, fuel lines flushed 3 times. Oh, a new gas cap since the car came with a locked one without a key. Fuel distributor commercially rebuilt and then sent back for a second rebuild due to fuel imbalance. Injectors tested and found to be unsalvageable. New in-box Bosch injectors. Rebuilt control pressure regulator more than once. It would hold for a while then fail again. Replaced with a professionally rebuilt one.

The frequency valve would not reliably operate. Sometimes it would vibrate other times it would not. Replaced system relay and ultimately had to swap out the computer. The car came with a VW 4-cylinder computer but I found a correct 2.8L PRV one. Now all that works.

Fuel delivery was still unbalanced but rebuild company out of business so I did it myself with the steel gasket and O ring rebuild kit. That solved the fuel problem.

The spark advance was initially found to be five degrees after TDC and also found the distributor off by one tooth. Because of all the many strange issues found I pulled the entire front end off the engine to verify crank to cam to piston to distributor alignment. I suspect that Elroy had tried to time to the #6 cylinder rather than #1.

The spark at the plugs was questionable. Plugs fired but three different timing lights would not reliably flash for timing check and the engine ran poorly. Replaced ignition pick-up coil inside the distributor, the insulated lead from the distributor and swapped out the ignition module with another used one. Not to miss anything I replaced the coil with a NOS Bosch coil.

Let’s not forget the few days diagnosing and replacing the ignition switch. It was physically broken inside.

Exterior was painted, interior leather, which was everywhere, was cleaned, treated and painted with vinyl paint. Coverlay dash cap installed and after giving up on dying the carpet new was installed.

I'll come back and plug in some pictures to make this a one page summary of 8 years of hobby work. It's been fun and frustrating.

Last edited by TestPoint; 11-25-2020 at 04:19 PM..
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Old 11-25-2020, 01:31 PM   #44
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What a painful story. Your persistence is outstanding. It looks great.

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This is as good a time as any.
Does this mean you are declaring it ready to run? What next for it?
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just gutless low compression k-junk
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Old 11-25-2020, 04:15 PM   #45
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I really believe that when I resolve the vacuum leak it will fine. The thousand things wrong with the car and extended period of time to resolve them were due to very long term storage, an unqualified person working on it for a year and me being the extended families auto service center. It was always a very sound rust free car with only 25k miles on it.

Never did get this forum involved into the details of restoring a brother's Jeep, twice, and a granddaughters Toyota wreak during the past 8 years.

Gave the wife's Miata to a granddaughter, giving the Jaguar Convertible to a grandson and the V8 Volvo wagon to my brother. Planning on keeping the Bertone for local lunch travel and some local car shows.

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Old 11-25-2020, 04:17 PM   #46
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Quote:
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At the moment it seems to run correctly except for
I never followed your saga, but this previously cite mentioned gives specific timing information required, if it applies to your setup. Some of my previous comments are irrelevant to this DeLorean DMC-12 ignition system, but I never had a firm understanding of your setup; as noted.

An oscilloscope should be used to evaluate, if pedal performance is not good; if you need a scope, shoot me a PM. With those specs for the DeLorean, a person can pinpoint an ignition issue.

PS: Fast Idle - Timing might be advanced too much...not good...recheck
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Old 11-25-2020, 04:25 PM   #47
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It is at 8 degrees before TDC at the moment. Vacuum leak after pulling the entire intake system off recently to verify distributor setup most likely source of high idle.

Rainy, cool day. Time for a nap.
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Old 11-25-2020, 07:02 PM   #48
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Just curious. Have you compression tested the engine?
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Old 11-25-2020, 08:49 PM   #49
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Just curious. Have you compression tested the engine?
Long ago. All cylinders 165+.

I was very concerned of freeze damage to block, radiator, heater core but the only thing I found was the heater core split.
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Old 11-26-2020, 10:42 AM   #50
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Quote:
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8 degrees before TDC at the moment.
???? Is your engine timing specs the same as this DeLorean DMC-12 ????

Basic ignition timing: 13+2 degrees BTDC at 775 +50 RPM (vacuum advance disconnected)

Spark advance -- vacuum (at idle speed): 5 in.hg. = 3 degrees; 10 in.hg. = 12 degrees; 15 in.hg. = 20 degrees [via hand held vacuum pump ]

Spark advance -- mechanical: 1000RPM (engine) = 0 degrees; 2000 RPM (engine) = 10 degrees; 3000 RPM (engine) = 14 degrees; 4000 RPM (engine) = 20 degrees

Trigger/stator pole air gap: 0.25mm

ETC: https://delorean.fandom.com/wiki/Ignition_system
===================

Footnote - A mechanic would have to have a good reason for changing a distributor's tooth position. I've pulled GM distributors for priming oil pump (hydraulic lifters), and only once in fifty plus years for a tooth change.
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