Rattle/chatter after AW70 -> T5 swap

I went for the T5 swap this past weekend and after putting it all together and firing it up, there is an awful rattle coming from the bell housing that basically sounds like a diesel engine is in there or something. Goes away when I push the clutch pedal in. The car went around the block and thru the gears just fine but the rattle is loud enough for me to know I shouldn't be driving it much as is. I don't think its the TO bearing because I can't really feel the rattle by grabbing the clutch fork. I also shimmed my input shaft before install to get rid of the back and forth play so I doubt that's it. I'm going to pull it tomorrow but if you all have any ideas of the source of this racket please share!

Edit: B230F LH2.4, Deeworks adapter with STS flywheel, M46 bellhousing (already had crank sensor notch), new sachs TO bearing, ford t5 pilot bearing (the one with the lip that won't fit in the crank), M46? clutch fork from TB member, input bearing shimming was by feel because my dial indicator was all fuq'd up (adjusted just to the point of no back and forth play and near-zero side-to-side play), the bearing and race itself looked and rolled fine

Assume an 89 from your signature. Lots of stuff gets swapped out over the years. So...What engine and engine management? What swap kit for bellhousing? What flywheel? What clutch? What TO bearing? What pilot bearing? What clutch fork? What spec did you use on the input bearing shimming and what was its condition (bad input shaft bearing will make racket until the clutch is depressed)? Lots of knowledge on the board, but you will need to provide as much detail as possible if you don't want crystal ball guesses and five pages worth of speculation to sort through.

PeaceEngineered said:

Assume an 89 from your signature. Lots of stuff gets swapped out over the years. So...What engine and engine management? What swap kit for bellhousing? What flywheel? What clutch? What TO bearing? What pilot bearing? What clutch fork? What spec did you use on the input bearing shimming and what was its condition (bad input shaft bearing will make racket until the clutch is depressed)? Lots of knowledge on the board, but you will need to provide as much detail as possible if you don't want crystal ball guesses and five pages worth of speculation to sort through.

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Agreed, and thanks for the response; I edited the op

So zero rattle any time the clutch is pressed to the floor.

With it idling in neutral, clutch engaged, push the clutch in. Rattle slows down and stops as the input shaft slows down?

Or stops the instant there is sufficient pressure on the throw-out bearing to load the throw-out bearing against the pressure plate?

We got to weld a lip onto a throw out bearing to solve a similar issue in the rallycar.

A lot of us with T5s are dealing with this. Mine is not the TO bearing. Some Lucas Oil Stabilizer helped the rattle slightly, but it's still there. From what I gather, the distance between the main and counter shafts is such that the frequency of our 4 cylinders (as opposed to 8 cylinders with twice the ignition events) makes the gear clusters rattle.

JohnLane said:

So zero rattle any time the clutch is pressed to the floor.

With it idling in neutral, clutch engaged, push the clutch in. Rattle slows down and stops as the input shaft slows down?

Or stops the instant there is sufficient pressure on the throw-out bearing to load the throw-out bearing against the pressure plate?

We got to weld a lip onto a throw out bearing to solve a similar issue in the rallycar.

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The former: the rattle slows down and stops as the input shaft slows down and stops.

I had a similar thing with my tko. Make sure you are running a return spring and the clutch fork isn't lightly hitting the clutch fingers.

blkaplan said:

I had a similar thing with my tko. Make sure you are running a return spring and the clutch fork isn't lightly hitting the clutch fingers.

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Sounds like it's not the throw out bearing, based on his post above.

Tfrasca said:

Sounds like it's not the throw out bearing, based on his post above.

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not to me.

blkaplan said:

not to me.

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If it takes him pressing the clutch all the way to the floor, then the noise takes a second to slowly go away, it's not a throw out bearing rattling against the clutch fingers. It coincides with the input shaft speed.

Rattly TOB would cease to make noise as soon as slight pressure on the pedal made the bearing contact the clutch.

Tfrasca said:

If it takes him pressing the clutch all the way to the floor, then the noise takes a second to slowly go away, it's not a throw out bearing rattling against the clutch fingers. It coincides with the input shaft speed.

Rattly TOB would cease to make noise as soon as slight pressure on the pedal made the bearing contact the clutch.

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I think you are right, i misread it the first time.

blkaplan said:

I think you are right, i misread it the first time.

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Yeah, I've got the same issue as the OP, so I'm hoping someone comes along with some answers.

Yes, to be absolutely clear the rattle coincides with input shaft speed, and not clutch pressure making it unlikely to be the throwout bearing. I'm not sure how the fork could touch the PP fingers but if it were I guess that input shaft spinning could result in rattle there.

One other place I'm suspicious of is the pilot bearing. Not that the sound is emanating from the PB, but I used the ford racing one with the shoulder that keeps it from going all the way into the crankshaft. If this puts too much pressure on the input shaft I could see it causing the rattle. Thoughts?

Coliningus said:

Yes, to be absolutely clear the rattle coincides with input shaft speed, and not clutch pressure making it unlikely to be the throwout bearing. I'm not sure how the fork could touch the PP fingers but if it were I guess that input shaft spinning could result in rattle there.

One other place I'm suspicious of is the pilot bearing. Not that the sound is emanating from the PB, but I used the ford racing one with the shoulder that keeps it from going all the way into the crankshaft. If this puts too much pressure on the input shaft I could see it causing the rattle. Thoughts?

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This sounds exactly like my thread from a couple weeks ago. I put a rebuilt T5 in with that same Ford pilot bearing, heard the terrible rattling, and immediately took the trans back out to replace the pilot bearing. I was sure it had siezed or wasn't sized correctly and was allowing the input shaft to wiggle around. The pilot bearing was completely fine. I put it back together with some Lucas Oil Stabilizer and that helped a tiny bit, at the expense of smooth shifting.

Tfrasca said:

A lot of us with T5s are dealing with this. Mine is not the TO bearing. Some Lucas Oil Stabilizer helped the rattle slightly, but it's still there. From what I gather, the distance between the main and counter shafts is such that the frequency of our 4 cylinders (as opposed to 8 cylinders with twice the ignition events) makes the gear clusters rattle.

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While I can't fully disagree as you are correct on the firing events, these transmissions where installed from the factory in 4 cylinder powered vehicles at minimum by Ford in the XR4Ti, SVO Mustang and Turbo Thunderbird and GM F bodies and S-10s. It would seem to me that it would be a warranty nightmare/PR blunder to have a transmission sound like a diesel engine and call it normal (although there have been those times). I would lean to the fact that a majority of these transmissions have been driven like they where stolen, then sold off to some unsuspecting user. I am typically leery of "rebuilt" transmissions as well- define rebuilt.

Coliningus said:

The former: the rattle slows down and stops as the input shaft slows down and stops.

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I had asked about your shimming of the input bearing. You did it by "feel", but the bearing looked good? What was the cause of the excessive play to start with, and how do you know what the play was if you had no way to measure it? What was the condition of the other bearings that also turn when in neutral only? Really, what is the history of the trans?
Another question- does it make the noise clutch in, car in gear and rolling? Meaning the wheels are still driving the trans internals? Clutch in, shifter in neutral and rolling? Not rolling?
I am not trying to bust on you, but I suspect you will be taking the transmission back out at a minimum. It would be prudent to get proper measuring tools to check the dimensions/tolerances- mics, calipers, dial indicator. "By feel" works for some things- except when it doesn't, and in my experience leads to redoing my work. YMMV

PeaceEngineered said:

While I can't fully disagree as you are correct on the firing events, these transmissions where installed from the factory in 4 cylinder powered vehicles at minimum by Ford in the XR4Ti, SVO Mustang and Turbo Thunderbird and GM F bodies and S-10s. It would seem to me that it would be a warranty nightmare/PR blunder to have a transmission sound like a diesel engine and call it normal (although there have been those times). I would lean to the fact that a majority of these transmissions have been driven like they where stolen, then sold off to some unsuspecting user. I am typically leery of "rebuilt" transmissions as well- define rebuilt.

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I know they came with damped slp yokes on 4 cylinder cars, but it doesn't seem like that would affect the rattling gear mesh sound at idle. I'll be pulling mine back out in a few weeks for a leaky input seal, and I'll probably end up taking it apart to see what "rebuilt" means in this case.

PeaceEngineered said:

I had asked about your shimming of the input bearing. You did it by "feel", but the bearing looked good? What was the cause of the excessive play to start with, and how do you know what the play was if you had no way to measure it? What was the condition of the other bearings that also turn when in neutral only? Really, what is the history of the trans?
Another question- does it make the noise clutch in, car in gear and rolling? Meaning the wheels are still driving the trans internals? Clutch in, shifter in neutral and rolling? Not rolling?
I am not trying to bust on you, but I suspect you will be taking the transmission back out at a minimum. It would be prudent to get proper measuring tools to check the dimensions/tolerances- mics, calipers, dial indicator. "By feel" works for some things- except when it doesn't, and in my experience leads to redoing my work. YMMV

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I appreciate the thoughtful post. As far as my shimming process I know I was going redneck but since one usually confirms proper input shimming by feeling the play and spinning the shafts I figured I could get away with the guess and check method, just had to take my bearing retainer off and on a lot. Obviously this is the first thing I should be looking at when I do pull it; I'd also like to make sure theres not other stuff I should order spares for in case I find out its something else when I do have it all apart.