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K15 cam Pics (heheh, just for pat ;) )

Cappy....if you "delay" the opening of the intake valve some, you can make the flow play "catch up"....using the movement of the piston going down --and the attendant lower pressure there--to force the incoming air to speed up...a method used to compensate for large,"lazy" ports....

and yeah, that may not be totally applicable to a boosted motor, but such playing with intake valve opening can increase the port velocity...so, in a round about way, less overlap --if the intake opening is delayed appropriately--can help "up" the port velocity...

and yeah, if you have a really long rod motor, the delay will have to be very delayed because it takes so long for that piston to start moving down [long rod/stroke ratio leads to long piston dwell time at TDC]...

Doug...yes, the less overlap will aid streetability.....and the higher lift tries to undo that--which is why some have questioned that cam: the high lift--which can affect the driveability...

BUT, the lobe profile, being flatter/fatter at the top, helps give more duration where useful, and the lesser overlap should work to compensate the driveability costs of the high lift....

AND, you will find out if that is so.....soon....

I hope it works....cuz it would indicate that such lobe profiles could be beneficial for those of us not really desirous of going so high in lift for our DDs.....a camshaft with such profiles --and less total lift-- could give better flow/more power in the low/mid ranges without the usual costs associated with the high lift factor of the pointy lobes...
 
Doug had originally touted the K15 for its higher lift, not other factors. He did not write, for example, that he was buying the K15 because he wanted its duration specs, but could not obtain those specs in a lower lift cam. Tom brought that up as a possible explanation for why the K15 may be a good choice even if on paper the extra lift looks like it will not do anything on a head that is stock save for some port and combustion chamber work. Peter agreed that the duration specs appeared to be pretty good, so if the goal was not higher lift, but those particular duration specs, and they could not be had without the extra lift, and someone has made the educated determination that the valve train tension and wear associated with the higher lift is a worthwile compromise.

I don't know enough about heads to know whether Tom's explanation pans out in practice. I think even Tom appears to recognize that some compromises appear to be involved, but suspects that the benefits outweigh the detriments. I am not so sure, particularly on the point of driveability sacrifices, bearing in mind that the motor in question is a B21FT with less displacement and lower compression and less sophisticated engine management than a B230FT. Perhaps someone with experience with radical heads, like Mike, will elaborate in general and on this particular application.

Doug has promised us dyno results, but he has made so many other changes that I am not sure whether those results will help us learn about the cam. Ideally, we would like to know whether the extra lift does anything, so a comparison would have to be made to an identical engine with an Enem V15, but Doug has said he does not plan to make such a test. I don't blame him, as that would be time consuming and expensive. I guess he can tell us how the cam seems to work with his particular engine. If he can get a dyno plot, they we can see the full power curve, rather than just the peak numbers, but even then, we cannot be sure exactly what the cam is responsible for. At least he has a B21FT without an rpm limiter, so if the cam is peaky, he can spend more time in the power curve without running into a 6000 rpm limiter like those of us with B230s. But Mike would say that one of the first mods, rather than one of the last mods, on the priority list should be to get a programmable engine management system and dyno tune the engine.

If Doug is frustrated by what appears to be questioning, he should refrain from posting so much (when I look at some people's post counts, I am appalled; I know that most if not all of the high volume posters have not had anything useful to write well over half if not three quarters or more of the time).

When one writes a lot about one's plans and intentions or just to write for no substantive purpose, one is attracting attention to oneself and is inviting questions. I prefer the other approach, which is to do stuff and ask questions along the way if I have any, and then write about what I have done after I have done it and tested it. Then I am in a better position to answer questions. But we each have our own approaches and we each must accept the benefits and drawbacks of those approaches.

Philip
 
pbonsalb said:
If Doug is frustrated by what appears to be questioning, he should refrain from posting so much (when I look at some people's post counts, I am appalled; I know that most if not all of the high volume posters have not had anything useful to write well over half if not three quarters or more of the time).

When one writes a lot about one's plans and intentions or just to write for no substantive purpose, one is attracting attention to oneself and is inviting questions. I prefer the other approach, which is to do stuff and ask questions along the way if I have any, and then write about what I have done after I have done it and tested it. Then I am in a better position to answer questions. But we each have our own approaches and we each must accept the benefits and drawbacks of those approaches.

Philip
Click to expand...

Bravo!

David
 
itb242 said:
[quote:2b85868f1f="pbonsalb"]If Doug is frustrated by what appears to be questioning, he should refrain from posting so much (when I look at some people's post counts, I am appalled; I know that most if not all of the high volume posters have not had anything useful to write well over half if not three quarters or more of the time).

When one writes a lot about one's plans and intentions or just to write for no substantive purpose, one is attracting attention to oneself and is inviting questions. I prefer the other approach, which is to do stuff and ask questions along the way if I have any, and then write about what I have done after I have done it and tested it. Then I am in a better position to answer questions. But we each have our own approaches and we each must accept the benefits and drawbacks of those approaches.

Philip
Click to expand...

Bravo!

David[/quote:2b85868f1f]

This is just a message board fellas; lighten up. The constant posters keep this board going, and doug is one of the more interesting posters. Hell, I don't even know how to post pics, so when Doug or Robin post I know I'll read it.

Don't get discouraged Doug; keep us informed.
 
I think we'd all like to see Doug vs. Phil dyno results. My money is on Doug right now. :lol:
 
I think Phillip would probably win at this point because he has his car all sorted out allready, while doug is just getting his stuff together. :wink:
 
None of us have crystal balls. We have all approached things from a slightly different angle, all invested different amounts of time and money, etc. So basically you can all cram the Doug Vs. Phil (or vs. Kenny) since we are all trying hard here to do what we can with what we have, and nobody can say what any of our cars will ultimately make, so why bother putting your "money" on anyone? It's like putting money on a sports team 4 years in advance.

We are a minority as it is, we don't need the internal conflict on any more that on a friendly "spur the other guy on" kind of thing.

And as a high poster, I must say the one thing more annoying than post-whoring is people with 4 posts jumping onto the board and trying to stir up shit.

Why don't you put up some useful info/mods/numbers first Canary before just shifting into pain-in-ass mode?

I will start a cams thread next week, unless someone wants to start it sooner. I'll be in LA and computerless until sunday.
 
AGREED AGRED!! Once again the fathers of the board are coming throdugh. Again we don't need to bang heads, all of thses things are taking time to do IT RIGHT! But we need to have opened minds for everyone has a different approach and it never hurts to WATCH WAIT AND LISTEN - that has been my moto throughout the years of working with different cars. My learning curve was especially with the early muscle car tuning and this is no different. SO LET's GET BACK TO THE FUN STUFF - Ken and Tom and Paul all have great ideas and cars to back them up so we will soon no who rules the roost!
 
doug242ti said:
Its up against a K cam (on the left). Hard to see the extra lift (but its there) but you can easily see the difference in lobe size. Much fatter..let peaky looking. I'll have dyno numbers in 2 weeks with it and the AIC (and some other goodies).

Doug

quote]

Umm, Phil, I do belive the line "you can easily see the difference in lobe size....much fatter" would be reffering to DURATION. I was in a hurry to post the pics just to show people what it looked like as Im sure no-one here has seen a K15 in person. This was REALLY only just to throw some pictures up guys.

Oh I typo'd its suppposed to say "less peaky looking".

Wow, for a lawyer, you think you'd read closer ;)
Click to expand...
 
Hey Kenny, I couldn't agree more about the new'bs.

I don't have all the specs listed in my sig guys so sometimes you'll just have to take it on faith that I've been working it out.

PB, didn't mean to be harsh, but it was very clear in the FIRST post about the cam. Was headed off to work so I didn't really have time to post more.

plus..untill I get it on the dyno I don't really have anything better than the butt-meter to go on...and we have PLENTY of that here.
 
doug242ti said:
doug242ti said:
Its up against a K cam (on the left). Hard to see the extra lift (but its there) but you can easily see the difference in lobe size. Much fatter..let peaky looking. I'll have dyno numbers in 2 weeks with it and the AIC (and some other goodies).

Doug

quote]

Umm, Phil, I do belive the line "you can easily see the difference in lobe size....much fatter" would be reffering to DURATION. I was in a hurry to post the pics just to show people what it looked like as Im sure no-one here has seen a K15 in person. This was REALLY only just to throw some pictures up guys.

Oh I typo'd its suppposed to say "less peaky looking".

Wow, for a lawyer, you think you'd read closer ;)
Click to expand...

Oh boy, don't get Phillip started...
Click to expand...
 
YES! LMFOA - let's not get under Paul's skin. But uit is all in good fun there have been a llot of times that we have agreed. So LETS get bacj to the fun STUFF!!!!
 
:badboy: Yea it is! Lol, what happened here? I go away for a few days and everyone's at each others throats! Good to see you're moving forward Doug, right or wrong at least you're trying it ('cause when it comes down to it, an engine made of parts runs way better than one made of numbers :badboy: ) good luck with it!
 
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