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Old 06-27-2006, 03:01 PM   #1
xwave
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Default Groove Results - Tried & tested

Please post results of tried & 'tested' results and findings from grooved volvo heads. Although results /findings will be subjective, it will help to show the general beneits /shortfalls of grooving.

Please avoid general comments & discussions or questions in this thread.

Posts from actual Grooved users only please.

General Discussion can be done here -
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=66779
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Last edited by xwave; 06-27-2006 at 04:01 PM..
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Old 06-30-2006, 12:55 AM   #2
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Bump. Did you make a post in ^said thread^ to get people's attention to post their results in here?

EDIT: I see you did, nevermind...

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Old 06-30-2006, 05:04 AM   #3
Les, slight limp
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Default Why i tried the grooves.

People are probably getting a bit fed up with my ramblings but here goes.

It's a bit hard to describe the affect the grooves have to someone else, sounds like a fairy tale, no wonder people think it's bs, you disfigure your pride and joy with a file and it works better, yeah right, to the people who think it's bs i don't really blame you, it pretty much goes against any "accepted practise", i'd have rejected it myself but for the fact it was free, i'm also disabled, 2 strokes, not important except i spend at least 2/3rds of my time in bed, and that doesn't count nights, so i've got plenty of thinking time, my "quality time" is spent on family stuff but that still leaves a proportion of time when i tend to get depressed and fret on how useless i am, daft projects that don't cost mucho cash keep me occupied and when they work lol, give me a feeling of accomplishment just for having done it myself, so if anybody was wondering why a fairly sensible (or as my wife puts it "senile") brit would be willing to destroy a perfectly good volvo head, now you know.
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Old 06-30-2006, 08:51 AM   #4
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The 2 groove head i did was supposed to be text book somender singh, 1 groove pointed at the plug from the squish area aligned between the valves, i had a spare k-jet head that was no use to me so used it for test purposes, i tried a couple of powered ways of cutting the first groove with varying degrees of disaster, hence the triangular file, i realise it cut the grooves a couple of mm to wide at the top, the file is far bigger than i'd recomend a fit person to use but because it was large it meant i could slowly do the job myself, there seemed to be a sizeable squish area alongside the plug and on reflection decided to put a smaller one there as well, no scientific basis for it at all, it just looked right, a quick rub with a brass brush and on it went, i didn't even clean the plugs, if the grooves were going to work they'd do it in spite of me, not because of me.

First impressions were pretty underwhelming, what you don't realise is that you can now drive your car like a diesel but it takes a while before your brain registers the fact that 30 mph in 5th is quite normal for a grooved head, just the job for pootling around in traffic, that's one of the problems with it, your car won't sound the same or drive the same, it's much much smoother, it's quieter and sounds more like a six than a four, the volvo harshness has gone, it's somehow more refined.

I couldn't get it to ping/knock even at 30 degrees advance, i had to advance it that far with the engine running to get it to start, the kick back is wicked anything past around 23 degrees, we finally had some 90 degree weather and i got a slight low ve ping at 30 degrees, obviously i only advanced it that far to test knock prevention.

I had to lean the carb out after doing the grooves to get the tickover down, this made no difference to the actual running of the engine, the carb was brand new when i bought it 6 months ago and had new jets etc for a 2.3 as it was off a b18/b19?, i'd estimate, and i've run the grooves a good while now that fuel economy is up 10% at least.

My wife likes it, i'm in the process of teaching her to drive, the grooves make it virtually stall proof, great for a nervous learner or a bloke with a gammy leg.

the grooves actually call for having the c/r raised or turning the boost up to realise the full benefits, all my tests were done on 95 ron unleaded, i think thats about equivalent to 88 ish american, it's normal supermarket piss anyway nothing special.

Tickover = idle, there is no idle adjustment left on the carb so the only way i can get it down is by leaning the mixture.

95 ron is the europe wide standard for ordinary petrol, 98 ron is the better stuff and the race petrol is about 110 but thats also leaded.

Last edited by Les, slight limp; 06-30-2006 at 06:12 PM..
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Old 06-30-2006, 04:49 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les, slight limp
I had to lean the carb out after doing the grooves to get the tickover down,
Probably a british English vs what the rest of us speak issue , but what do you mean buy “tickover” or “get the tickover down?”

Quote:
the grooves actually call for having the c/r raised or turning the boost up to realise the full benefits, all my tests were done on 95 ron unleaded, i think thats about equivalent to 88 ish american, it's normal supermarket piss anyway nothing special.
They don’t really translate, since our rating is an average of 2 different ratings could be anything in a rather wide range over here and vice versa. Might be more useful if you guys do something like regular (87 R+M/2), plus (89 R+M/2) and premium or supreme (between 91 and 93 R+M/2 depending on area). In some places you can also buy an economy which is 86 R+M/2 (don’t know of anything that it is actually recommended for), and in some cases you can also buy 94 (getting rare), without getting into race gas
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Old 06-30-2006, 06:50 PM   #6
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tickover=idle speed.

the lower the number for brit "piss" = lower number US. Piss
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Old 08-25-2006, 03:06 PM   #7
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Default Understanding Tickover (for US readers)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverback View Post
Probably a british English vs what the rest of us speak issue , but what do you mean buy “tickover” or “get the tickover down?”
Quote:
Originally Posted by suterman View Post
tickover=idle speed.

the lower the number for brit "piss" = lower number US. Piss
Obviously a full explaination of what Tickover is for those who donk speak and understand english, and the americans out there ....

What is tickover ?

Tick can be divided into 2 parts - "tick" and "over".

The Tick referrs to the 'tick' sound of the cars engine, generally when idling.
Some car owners, who have diesels engines may hear a "klonk" sound.
Hovever some protective owners may get irrate i you refer to their engine "Klocking" rather than "ticking". One Tick is usually determined at one tick to one revolution of the cars engine

Over refers to "over time" and the scientiically accepted model of time is 1 minute, in regards to the application of ticks.

The clever part ...
Put them together and you get "tickover" thus 1 tick per revolution per munute.

This is equal to idle speed in Revolutions Per Minute. Thus "tickover" accurately describes the cars idle state - RPM.

Elaborating on suterman's excellent scientific equation by using capitals and an extra space or two:
TICKOVER = IDLE SPEED

For diesel owners, the tickover could be described as "klonkover". However scientiic study has shown that there is often more than one klonk on diesel engines, and in some cases more clonks than the engines cylinders.

Thus this equation was formulated for "klonkover":

TICKOVER = IDLE SPEED = (KLONKOVER -X ) / n
where X = number of extra klonks the diesel engine makes in 1 munute
n= number of cylinders

The trouble was with this is that X could, and would vary significantly from car to car, and would vary in different engines, even of the same design. Factors contributed to this was the age, and milage of the vehicle, and the general noises of diesel engines.

Hence the Klonkover theory and calculation was dropped, and they decided to stick with "tickover" here in the UK.

Hope this helps.
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Old 07-02-2006, 09:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xwave
Please post results of tried & 'tested' results and findings from grooved volvo heads....
xwave, I haven’t grooved Volvo heads only because I don't know anybody that has one, but I'm looking. I couldn’t resist posting anyway.

Over the last two years I have grooved heads for more than twenty engines, I lost count. Most of these are performance or race only Generation I, II or III SBC. At first the results appeared to be rather vague, until I realized what was happening. The best way to describe it is: this modification improves the quality combustion to a point that it changes the characteristics of the engine. The limits of the engine are altered, the modification allows higher compression with out detonation, lean burn and ignition advance limits are changed and warm up periods are reduced. Fuel enrichment functionally can be reduced or eliminated completely.

Most of my work is on drag race engines designed to operate in 5000 to 7500 RPM range. The camshafts provide long overlap periods that can ruin idle quality and low RPM power. This modification restores the idle quality and power. This is a big plus for people that operate engines outside of there designed RPM range.

Additional benefits: oil & plugs runs cleaner, quit smooth engine operation under heavy loads at any RPM, engine runs cooler, reduced fuel consumption; I have seen reductions as high as 30%

Some little known facts:

The 2005 Western Canadian motorcycle championship was won using Somender’s multi groove cylinder head; the bike could not be beat leaving the starting line.

The driver winning the largest overall purse at No Problem Raceway in 2005 ran a set of heads grooved by me using Somender’s single groove layout.

Last edited by automotivebreath; 07-02-2006 at 09:23 PM..
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Old 07-03-2006, 04:22 PM   #9
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Hi automotivebreath,

Thanks for your input.

Good to hear theres a few people who are willing not only to groove many heads, but are of the firm belief that its a positive move, and worthwhile in professional applications.

This thread was primarily to avoid questions from non groovers, but to give groovers and non groovers alike more 'hard' facts, +ve or otherwise to help them form their own conclusions, and decide whether they should get grooving! Thanks for your info.
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Old 07-03-2006, 07:43 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xwave
...Good to hear theres a few people who are willing not only to groove many heads, but are of the firm belief that its a positive move, and worthwhile in professional applications....
Not only has the modification worthwhile but it has proved to provide a fix to common problems of the the ineffecent design we call the internal combustion engine. Detonation, pore throttle response and lack of low RPM power are a thing of the past.


Here are details of one of my current projects.

I'm helping a good friend with his 1965 Corvette race car. It has a Generation II SCB from the late 90s, bored and stroked to 383 CI. Electronic fuel injection with a mix of production and aftermarket parts. The heads are a production piece ported and grooved.

The car has been 9.90ET in the 1/4 mile; it has reached the limits of the production intake manifold and valve sizes. Next step will be to fabricate a dual plane/dual throttle body intake manifold.



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Old 07-02-2006, 11:51 PM   #11
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I think what Mike's point was that indexing plugs is only worth doing if your engine's design will make the piston come into contact with the plug, should you NOT index them.
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Old 07-02-2006, 11:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klr142
I think what Mike's point was that indexing plugs is only worth doing if your engine's design will make the piston come into contact with the plug, should you NOT index them.
and thats why I said "good to know"
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Old 07-03-2006, 12:04 AM   #13
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Gotcha, ;). Now, with all this discussion, when I put on a head, I think I'm definitely going to be playing with these grooves...
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Old 07-06-2006, 01:08 AM   #14
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Huh, what do you mean by generation II, LT1?
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Old 07-06-2006, 07:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverback
Huh, what do you mean by generation II, LT1?
When I say generation II, I refer to both the LT1 and the Vortec engines of the mid to late 90s. I realize they have differences; the only one I am familiar with is the LT1. I have modified several sets of heads of this design; I consider them to be the best production 23 degree SBC heads ever made. Too bad they won’t bolt up to my Gen I blocks.
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Old 07-06-2006, 11:37 PM   #16
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They’re actually not that hard to bolt on to gen 1 blocks… you just need to plug the Nebraska shaped holes on either end of the heads deck surface and either drill the manifold face for the coolant crossover in the front or drill and tap the accessory mount pads for fittings like Yunnick does for his cooling system modification.
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Old 07-07-2006, 06:52 PM   #17
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Default Groove results

Well, I finally got the beast up and running and can give some initial feedback. First, here are the grooves I cut:





They ended up being a little wider than I originally intended, and a little bit shorter. When cutting them (triangular file and hacksaw blade) I didn't like having a sharp transition from the angled file area and the hacksaw area - just looked like sharp projections and that can't be good. I ended up filing a bit more to soften the edges, with the side effect of making them a bit wider as well.

I also feel like I was a bit conservative when it came to approaching the edge of the HG. The last thing I wanted was to get too close, and I may have gone the other way. I figure the sharpie marker adds about 1.5-2 mm from the outside edge of the gasket, and I stayed another 1.5-2 mm from the edge of the sharpie marker.

And another disclosure: before disassembly I had a burned valve, so I had reduced power across the range, but the low end torque was nowhere to be found. As RPMs were raised the missing parts of the valve began to play less of a role and power loss was less noticeable. Also, it has been a full 9 months since I drove my Volvo. I know, that's a long time for a valve job but that's not the only thing I had going on.

All that being said, I do notice a marked improvement with grooves. It may be difficult to isolate how much of the improvement can be attributed to the valve and how much can be attributed to the grooves, but they certainly didn't make things any worse. I got caught in traffic on the way home and enjoyed being able to leave it in 5th even when things slowed down to 35 mph.

You don't accelerate very fast, but then again if I wanted to go fast I wouldn't be in 5th at 35 mph. Less gearshifts = longer clutch life.

There is also a big increase in low end torque. Yes, some (most?) of this is probably due to the replaced valve but I'm sure the grooves have something to do with it too.

As far as gas mileage goes, it is too soon to tell for sure. Driving home from my parents' house used to take almost an entire tank (say, 11 gallons) and this time I still had a half tank when I got home. Again, most of this is likely due to the replaced valve, but some is also likely to be attributed to the grooves. I will get some specific numbers posted after I get my speedo/odo fixed.
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Old 07-09-2006, 04:05 PM   #18
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WHats everyone MPG before & after?

Please state the units clearly ie US Miles per US gallons, cos US gallons are different from UK gallons, as are Tyres which they call tires, bonnet they call hood, boot thay call trunk, etc etc.

Although most things in the US are bigger their gallon is considerably smaller
1 UK gallon = 1.200950 US gallons

That would make their ten gallon hat only 8.3267413 gallons if measured over here.

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Old 07-09-2006, 04:54 PM   #19
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My mpg is up 15-20% round town so i'm well satisfied.
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Old 07-11-2006, 02:43 PM   #20
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Default 16 valve head

I am in the planning stages of my 16vt buildup in a 93 945 tic. I wonder if using these grooves on the 16v head would allow me to run the stock pistons from the b234 engine? I am going to try the grooves on my 8v head first. I currently have to run 93 octane so I don't ping or knock. So if this works I may be able to downgrade my octane? I will find out. The head should be ready in a month or so. I will post results later.
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Old 07-15-2006, 04:48 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strouty
I am in the planning stages of my 16vt buildup in a 93 945 tic. I wonder if using these grooves on the 16v head would allow me to run the stock pistons from the b234 engine?
As in stock B230F/B230FT pistons? Unrelated issue
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Old 07-15-2006, 04:06 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les, slight limp
My mpg is up 15-20% round town so i'm well satisfied.
Les what approx MPG do you get?

Cheers
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Old 07-15-2006, 06:09 PM   #23
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Round town ie all 30-40 mph stop & start driving with maybe a 70-80 mph trip to tamworth 12 miles gives 26. odd to the british gallon, on the holiday trip which was pretty mixed driving is 514 miles on 81 litres and it's down to the top of the red, so about another 15? - 20 miles, i'm clocking all the fuel put in and doing a 1000 mile test, i've done 750 odd so far.

On 20 pounds worth of fuel i used to get 120 odd miles, when the fuel went up that came down to about 100 - 105 miles, now it's grooved it's back up to 120 odd miles, these figures are based on a weekly fuel allowance of 20 pounds so i notice how many miles i got, the fuel is actually slightly dearer now at 96 - 97 pence per litre, it was a pound a litre in wales.
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Old 07-15-2006, 06:18 PM   #24
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Ok thanks les.

Im at about 26-28 MPG so I guess Im doing ok then.

Was hoping for 30-35 though!
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:57 PM   #25
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My experience with the Grooves in a 1988 Chrysler 2.2 Turbo intercooled. I have just completed the head swap a couple of weeks ago. I have noticed cool EGT temps. As low as 650F at idle though 700F is the norm. Around town 775-850F, highway about 857-950F, boosting to 12psi just breaks 1000F, though it may go higher and I just do not see it quick enough. These EGTs temps are ~200F below what others report as normal. With the boosting temps very low. I did raise the C/R .5 from 8.1 to 8.6 by milling the head.

A friend that had his EGT in before he did the grooves has seen a 200F+ drop in EGTs.

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