244Ti Stage Rally Project

[culberro]

Originally Posted by pat244ti

Thats exactly what I used one of those for on my stock car since we were extremely limited on our tire selection! Were you talking about removing the tar paper with one?

Heck yeah. They make a chisel blade, or you can make your own out of a really dull saw blade (and they come in different widths too!). It just scrapes right on through the tar paper. It only works well on flat or mostly flat surfaces.

For weld prep in tight areas, I've found that a flat wire wheel in the drill is about the greatest thing since sliced break. The lower speeds of the drill keep it from melting the undercoating and it will actually rip it off the metal.
Garth and Kyle at Trackside swear by this: https://store.snapon.com/Remove-All-...l-P644425.aspx
At $550, I'm never going to buy one. They do amazing shell prep on all of their rally cars, and they don't use dry ice or liquid nitrogen.

[pat244ti]

Originally Posted by culberro

Heck yeah. They make a chisel blade, or you can make your own out of a really dull saw blade (and they come in different widths too!). It just scrapes right on through the tar paper. It only works well on flat or mostly flat surfaces.

For weld prep in tight areas, I've found that a flat wire wheel in the drill is about the greatest thing since sliced break. The lower speeds of the drill keep it from melting the undercoating and it will actually rip it off the metal.
Garth and Kyle at Trackside swear by this: https://store.snapon.com/Remove-All-...l-P644425.aspx
At $550, I'm never going to buy one. They do amazing shell prep on all of their rally cars, and they don't use dry ice or liquid nitrogen.

Pricey but looks effective.

Speaking of effectiveness, I've been lacking in that department this week with a double whammy of strep throat and poison oak. Nothing has been stopping Al though. I'll be up there next week hopefully for a few consecutive days to knock more crap out.

[quillc]

Being a cage noob....

Is it common to open up the roof like that and then weld it back up?

[pat244ti]

Originally Posted by quillc

Being a cage noob....

Is it common to open up the roof like that and then weld it back up?

Not all the time, but sometimes, yes.

In this case, we were eliminating the sunroof that came stock [it was a Turbo model] so we had to eliminate the tray it sat in as well as cutting out the opening where the sunroof was. Gives good access to weld everything up as well as getting it tucked as close to the roof as possible which is ideal. We will be welding a panel back in there with roof vents.

[Tuff240]

Originally Posted by culberro

Garth and Kyle at Trackside swear by this: https://store.snapon.com/Remove-All-...l-P644425.aspx
At $550, I'm never going to buy one.

I don't have one either, but I have used one and they do work awesome. If you do a lot of bare shell builds, easily worth the investment.

Originally Posted by pat244ti

Why do people always put the rear down bars to the fender wells and not the area right above the shock?!? Drives me nuts.

[pat244ti]

Originally Posted by Tuff240

Why do people always put the rear down bars to the fender wells and not the area right above the shock?!? Drives me nuts.

Al could probably explain better than I, but IIRC his reasoning for having them spread out onto the fender wells was to provide another escape route [rear window] in the event of a rollover where the sides are blocked off. I asked him the same question because both my Lemons cars have the backstays running just next to the fenderwell next to the shock. I'm not expert on the subject, but if the fenderwell and that area where the bars run on my other cars area tied together well enough I don't think it will make much difference.

Either way at some point down the line the back stays will be tied in to real shock towers once it comes time

[pat244ti]

Went back up to Novato this weekend and got the car on the rotisserie




And promptly got to scraping.

[culberro]

If you're running stock rear suspension links, reinforce the weld nuts for the upper links (but you probably already know this). I made a sweet little drill guide to hole saw out the stock weld-nut, and some fancy double shear brackets. 2hrs of work and infinite peace... oooohhhhhmmmmmm.
Will post back with some photogs.

[quillc]

Originally Posted by culberro

If you're running stock rear suspension links, reinforce the weld nuts for the upper links (but you probably already know this). I made a sweet little drill guide to hole saw out the stock weld-nut, and some fancy double shear brackets. 2hrs of work and infinite peace... oooohhhhhmmmmmm.
Will post back with some photogs.

I'd love to see these. The passenger side weld nut is partially stripped and won't hold torque (even with locktight). I was contemplating sawing it out and welding in a bracket just like this (I'll have to do something). It would be great to see what you did and not have to reinvent the wheel.

[culberro]

Drill bushing I made that threads into the stock weld nut, and leaved you with a nice hole:




Then make some plates out of 1/8in flat bar, drill a hole for the link bolt, and weld a nut to the backside. I used some 1/8in thick strap that was 2in wide and 6in long to reinforce the floor area for the in-board tab. Add in a cheap crappy MIG and overhead welding to get this:

[quillc]

That's exactly what I was picturing for the bracket. Innovative use of the bolt as a drill guide. I like it.

[culberro]

The only downside is that you can no longer use the factory in-board bracket... Well I guess you could if you opened up the mounting hole a bit. It does a nice job of tying the upper and lower link mounts together.

[pat244ti]

Hell yeah thanks for the advice on that. I know we were doing some reinforcements and building a "ski jump" for the front trailing arm mount. Was not sure what the plan was for the torque rods

[Tuff240]

If you are going through that much effort, raise them up into the rear seat area for better geometry and longer rods.

[culberro]

Originally Posted by Tuff240

If you are going through that much effort, raise them up into the rear seat area for better geometry and longer rods.

What classifies as "better" geometry?

[Tuff240]

Originally Posted by culberro

What classifies as "better" geometry?

Longer torque rods that are parallel (or adjustable) to the control arms.

[culberro]

But what I'm trying to get at is.... why is that better?
Why are parallel links better?
Why not xx% anti-squat?
How much roll steer do you want or need?

[culberro]

The trailing arms on a Volvo are already 24in long.

[pat244ti]

Originally Posted by Tuff240

If you are going through that much effort, raise them up into the rear seat area for better geometry and longer rods.

I'm keeping most of the rear suspension stock as far as geometry and mounting for now - just reinforcing it for strength because that is what needs attention.

Once I feel like I have my end of the deal all together [driving], I'll start messing with things like that if I really feel the need. I see enough people doing fine with it who have ran it that way for years where I think it will be fine for me to start with instead of trying to get too creative off the bat.

[Tuff240]

Originally Posted by culberro

But what I'm trying to get at is.... why is that better?
Why are parallel links better?
Why not xx% anti-squat?
How much roll steer do you want or need?

I spent a couple days worth of spare time here and there righting up a nice reply for you. Had pics uploaded and links to articles and videos. Power went out and wiped it all out.
I know you know the basics of this stuff at least and you were more or less just goading me into writing something for informations sake, but I'm over it.

Here's the pics I uploaded at least...

Factory Group A car:





Then someone taking it even farther on a modified 240:

Originally Posted by pat244ti

I'm keeping most of the rear suspension stock as far as geometry and mounting for now - just reinforcing it for strength because that is what needs attention.

Once I feel like I have my end of the deal all together [driving], I'll start messing with things like that if I really feel the need. I see enough people doing fine with it who have ran it that way for years where I think it will be fine for me to start with instead of trying to get too creative off the bat.

Sounds like a reasonable plan.

[culberro]

Originally Posted by Tuff240

I spent a couple days worth of spare time here and there righting up a nice reply for you. Had pics uploaded and links to articles and videos. Power went out and wiped it all out.
I know you know the basics of this stuff at least and you were more or less just goading me into writing something for informations sake, but I'm over it.

Hopefully I wasn't annoying you, because that wasn't what I was going for. Thanks for taking the time to make a post (again) with some good pictures! I have been curious about rear suspension, and was hoping for some insight since I know you have experience in the road racing world.

I went to A-n-T and measured the rear suspension geometry for both a mk1 Escort rally car (the REAL deal) and Garth's Starlet rally car. These cars both had links that were all 25in long, but they were set up with 45% (Escort) and 30% (Starlet) anti-squat. I need to crawl under the volvo and measure the links, but I'm guessing that it is in the 60+% range.

From the top Gr.A picture, you can see that the top link is raised about an 1in, and that would lower the amount of anti-squat. The longer upper link will also limit the amount of pinion change in bump/drop compared to stock. It will also keep the rear wheels from moving forward (as much) when the suspension goes into major bump. I could see that as being helpful for rally.

As far as what is needed, the VOC cars and F-Cup volvos seem to be going really fast with just stock rear links. But that doesn't mean that an improvement couldn't be made, I just think that there's lower hanging fruit that need to be taken care of first.

[pat244ti]

Originally Posted by Tuff240

Sounds like a reasonable plan.

I think so. Rally is a whole different game but I am kinda going at it the same way I did stock cars - just drive the car the first year, make changes and be more aggressive once you get the hang of it. I did that the second year and I went from finishing top 5 - top 10 nightly to consistent podiums.

Originally Posted by culberro

I just think that there's lower hanging fruit that need to be taken care of first.

This, but all the discussion will help down the line.

Been making weekly trips up to Al's to work on the car. It's taken a little bit of time but it's just about ready for paint now that the whole pan is clean. Going to paint the tub/engine bay/trunk area gloss white for cleaning and crack spotting.




I got a 244 parts car, so the roof panel will get a patch from that car, as well as other odds and ends like side windows,manual regulators, and door cards. As far as exterior paint, I decided the hood, roof and trunk top will be white to keep heat down. One of the events I am doing is Gorman Ridge and it gets hot there in August. The sides from the trim line down will be red, blitz black and a little gold.




Recently been ordering a lot of the parts to get the cat totally complete. Got most of the safety equipment out of the way.



Got a nice handbrake. Also ordered up everything to completely re plumb the brake circuit with mostly AN3 connections, and will have single line 240 ABS front calipers and a bias valve in the center console.



Also scored a RSI Stage II cam. Not sure if it's going in this car or the Lemons car just yet.

[Tuff240]

Pat, car is looking great and I admire how much you guys get done.
Are you putting real paint on or just bomb cans like the lemons car?

Originally Posted by culberro

Hopefully I wasn't annoying you, because that wasn't what I was going for. Thanks for taking the time to make a post (again) with some good pictures! I have been curious about rear suspension, and was hoping for some insight since I know you have experience in the road racing world.

I went to A-n-T and measured the rear suspension geometry for both a mk1 Escort rally car (the REAL deal) and Garth's Starlet rally car. These cars both had links that were all 25in long, but they were set up with 45% (Escort) and 30% (Starlet) anti-squat. I need to crawl under the volvo and measure the links, but I'm guessing that it is in the 60+% range.

From the top Gr.A picture, you can see that the top link is raised about an 1in, and that would lower the amount of anti-squat. The longer upper link will also limit the amount of pinion change in bump/drop compared to stock. It will also keep the rear wheels from moving forward (as much) when the suspension goes into major bump. I could see that as being helpful for rally.

As far as what is needed, the VOC cars and F-Cup volvos seem to be going really fast with just stock rear links. But that doesn't mean that an improvement couldn't be made, I just think that there's lower hanging fruit that need to be taken care of first.

I wasn't annoyed by you, just irritated my crappy PC and wifi that lost all that effort.

I agree with the low hanging fruit theory, but you were in there cutting and welding already is why I brought it up.

On the Group A pics the upper mount is probably a good 2" above stock. If you look carefully you can also see where they lowered the bottom mount about an inch also.

Regarding the VOC cars... going fast compared to what? That seems kind of like an irrelevant comparison because it's not really comparing. We go fast in ITB compared to ITD. Slow compared to SPM.

[pat244ti]

Originally Posted by Tuff240

Pat, car is looking great and I admire how much you guys get done.
Are you putting real paint on or just bomb cans like the lemons car?

I am going over there Friday to start the paint - for the engine bay/tub/trunk/etc that is going to be white, I am going to be brushing/rolling it on.

I might spraybomb the cage while the glass is out

But I found a connection via Ken with a spraybooth [Masters Auto Body in Daly City] that will be doing the exterior when it is ready.

I'm ordering up the last round of parts, and once I have everything ready I am going to go up there and get it running and driving. Thanks for the compliments. I've been happy with the progress but I'll call it a success when we finish Olympus.

[Tfrasca]

If for some reason that paint hook up falls through, I know a guy down in Watsonville who does great work too.