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Old 06-29-2013, 08:30 AM   #1
Slevin
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Default T6 engine tuning

Hi all,

I am curios what do you guys think about T6 engine tuning.I am planning to build a 960 or S90 with 2.8 T6 (81mm)but single turbo system (GT30,Gt35 or similar)controlled by a standalone ECU,but dont know how good this engine is for tuning.

Thanks for any input
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Old 06-29-2013, 02:30 PM   #2
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Captain Bondo made over 500 HP on his motor, bone stock. They're a nice motor.
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:47 PM   #3
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Unless you have any fabrication skills like machining and welding, it's a project that'll run you anywhere from 5000$ to 10 000$ without including the cost of the car. Getting a custom turbo manifold will run you anywhere from 1000-1500$, same thing for a custom turbo back exhaust, anywhere from 800 to 1500$ for the turbo depending if ball bearing or not. If you have to buy the engine, expect anywhere from 1500 to 2500$. Standalone ECU will cost around 2000$ for this engine. This engine is very capable just with stock internals. But it's a hell of a project. Don't worry, i'm not hating or anything, i have the same project in mind in 2-3 years from now. But i already have an s80 t6, so i have the engine, and i can machine or weld so fabrication costs will run very low.
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:52 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Graphxxx View Post
Unless you have any fabrication skills like machining and welding, it's a project that'll run you anywhere from 5000$ to 10 000$ without including the cost of the car. Getting a custom turbo manifold will run you anywhere from 1000-1500$, same thing for a custom turbo back exhaust, anywhere from 800 to 1500$ for the turbo depending if ball bearing or not. If you have to buy the engine, expect anywhere from 1500 to 2500$. Standalone ECU will cost around 2000$ for this engine. This engine is very capable just with stock internals. But it's a hell of a project. Don't worry, i'm not hating or anything, i have the same project in mind in 2-3 years from now. But i already have an s80 t6, so i have the engine, and i can machine or weld so fabrication costs will run very low.
A standalone ems like Megasquirt or VEMS is less than $1000.

And the other stuff can be done yourself for less.
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Old 06-29-2013, 11:27 PM   #5
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Yes it can be done, but who says he has the skills or the equipement to weld and machine?
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Old 06-30-2013, 05:36 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Graphxxx View Post
Unless you have any fabrication skills like machining and welding, it's a project that'll run you anywhere from 5000$ to 10 000$ without including the cost of the car. Getting a custom turbo manifold will run you anywhere from 1000-1500$, same thing for a custom turbo back exhaust, anywhere from 800 to 1500$ for the turbo depending if ball bearing or not. If you have to buy the engine, expect anywhere from 1500 to 2500$. Standalone ECU will cost around 2000$ for this engine. This engine is very capable just with stock internals. But it's a hell of a project. Don't worry, i'm not hating or anything, i have the same project in mind in 2-3 years from now. But i already have an s80 t6, so i have the engine, and i can machine or weld so fabrication costs will run very low.
Thanks for noticing, but i already have some stuffs,like the ECU,clutch,forged rods,big injectors,custom intercooler etc.And I am from Hungary which is a cheap country (you might never heard it), and we are Volvo breakers so getting the parts is not that hard and expensive.T6 S80s are cheap in Europe,because of the bad economy.Diesels are worth much more.I mean a bare t6 engine is less then 500 dollars.
For example my stainless steel exhaust did cost 700dollars,with a manifold it would be 1000.
USA is a different world

Here is a pic of the exhaust,just te show the quality:
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Old 06-30-2013, 12:16 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by 84 Blue 240 View Post
Captain Bondo made over 500 HP on his motor, bone stock. They're a nice motor.
Pretty sure Kenny's was forged rods (aftermarket) but with OEM Mahle's (original or os2 I can't remember).

Still, we're talking basically stock with rods and a header. Awesome.
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Old 06-30-2013, 12:44 PM   #8
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No he made around 460-480 WHP on stock rods and around 540 WHP with rods.

That is a nice exhaust at a cheap price, but keep in mind, is you plan on going single turbo, you'll need a custom manifold. You can go with a log manifold or equal length manifold. But if you do go with an equal length manifold, it won't cost 300$ even in hungary (i'm half hungarian by the way). An equal length manifold is MUCH harder to do than a simple exhaust system, and not all shops do manifolds simply because they don't want to warranty the manifold. The shop that did my exhaust (great job) used to do manifolds, but no longer simply because it's alot more work, and if it fails, they have to fix it for free.
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Old 06-30-2013, 02:06 PM   #9
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Are you really from Hungary?Good to hear!
Btw,the guy (who made my exhaust) said it costs around 300.He did exhausts,manifolds for pretty much rally cars,drag cars,bikes etc,I mean he has got experience so knows what he says.
Otherwise I am more than satisfied with 400whp,don't want to get silly numbers.
B4194T2 engines came with forged pistons(81mm),so I may get 6 of those in the proper size.
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Old 06-30-2013, 08:01 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Graphxxx View Post
Unless you have any fabrication skills like machining and welding, it's a project that'll run you anywhere from 5000$ to 10 000$ without including the cost of the car. Getting a custom turbo manifold will run you anywhere from 1000-1500$, same thing for a custom turbo back exhaust, anywhere from 800 to 1500$ for the turbo depending if ball bearing or not. If you have to buy the engine, expect anywhere from 1500 to 2500$. Standalone ECU will cost around 2000$ for this engine. This engine is very capable just with stock internals. But it's a hell of a project. Don't worry, i'm not hating or anything, i have the same project in mind in 2-3 years from now. But i already have an s80 t6, so i have the engine, and i can machine or weld so fabrication costs will run very low.
You're speaking from experience right? Where's the project thread where you did all these things?
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:47 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Karl Buchka View Post
You're speaking from experience right? Where's the project thread where you did all these things?
You should also take the time to ask this guy:
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And the other stuff can be done yourself for less.
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:51 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Graphxxx View Post
Unless you have any fabrication skills like machining and welding, it's a project that'll run you anywhere from 5000$ to 10 000$ without including the cost of the car. Getting a custom turbo manifold will run you anywhere from 1000-1500$, same thing for a custom turbo back exhaust, anywhere from 800 to 1500$ for the turbo depending if ball bearing or not. If you have to buy the engine, expect anywhere from 1500 to 2500$. Standalone ECU will cost around 2000$ for this engine. This engine is very capable just with stock internals. But it's a hell of a project. Don't worry, i'm not hating or anything, i have the same project in mind in 2-3 years from now. But i already have an s80 t6, so i have the engine, and i can machine or weld so fabrication costs will run very low.
My Megasquirt 2 box cost 278 Dollars.
An s80 t6 is available at the pnp for 170, or pulled from a running car for 3-4.
Having someone make a custom exhaust locally is 600.
A brand new shiny ball bearing turbo is 1k, you can get something capable for less.
The manifold is the only thing thats in the 700-1k range.
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:59 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphxxx View Post
Unless you have any fabrication skills like machining and welding, it's a project that'll run you anywhere from 5000$ to 10 000$ without including the cost of the car. Getting a custom turbo manifold will run you anywhere from 1000-1500$, same thing for a custom turbo back exhaust, anywhere from 800 to 1500$ for the turbo depending if ball bearing or not. If you have to buy the engine, expect anywhere from 1500 to 2500$. Standalone ECU will cost around 2000$ for this engine. This engine is very capable just with stock internals. But it's a hell of a project. Don't worry, i'm not hating or anything, i have the same project in mind in 2-3 years from now. But i already have an s80 t6, so i have the engine, and i can machine or weld so fabrication costs will run very low.
I think those numbers are way off

This is my build cost so far

low mile running/complete t6: $400
Brand new HX40$300(yeah i got a super deal)
getrag 265 :$300
supra rear diff: $50
log style exhaust mani kit: $200
intake mani bits:$250
MS2 Kit:~$250

I'm doing most of the labor myself but invest in a cheap Harbor Freight mig welder or go in halfs with a buddy. It will save some coin down the road. I am lucky enough to have access to a tig welder.

I got awesome deals on alot of this stuff but anyone can with some strong googlefoo skills. All in all, i probably have $2500 in so far including the cost of the car. It's not as brutal as most people think IF IF IF IF you are patient and can't hunt/negotiate deal like a bauce. I still have a ways to go because of current cash flow but i think that is true for all tbrickers.
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:31 AM   #14
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Might be a stupid question but I am not familiar with getrag,so is that box straight fit to the whiteblock.How much hp/nm can the M90 handle?
Why do you need supra diff?Iirc later 960/S90 came with a kind of speer diff?Are they able to handle the performance?Are you doing custom intake?Sorry for the lot of questions but this t6 stuff is new to me.

Last edited by Slevin; 07-01-2013 at 04:55 AM..
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Old 07-01-2013, 11:44 AM   #15
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If you want the best answers, send a message to Capt bondo. He had a sachs 707 pressure plate and organic disc on an M90 and it held the 540 WHP. He had a ford rear diff but he used a 242 wagon i think so he didn't have IRS in there. What are your power goals with the T6 engine?
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:05 PM   #16
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I am happy with 400ish whp.I dont want to put huge turbo on it,GT30 or similar enough for it.It should not be too laggy on this size engine I guess.
Will talk to Capt,thank for the helps btw.

Last edited by Slevin; 07-01-2013 at 02:34 PM..
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:07 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Slevin View Post
Might be a stupid question but I am not familiar with getrag,so is that box straight fit to the whiteblock.How much hp/nm can the M90 handle?
Why do you need supra diff?Iirc later 960/S90 came with a kind of speer diff?Are they able to handle the performance?Are you doing custom intake?Sorry for the lot of questions but this t6 stuff is new to me.
Its not a direct fit. Its a Getrag 5 speed commonly found in BMW e24/e28's. Known to hold power pretty well. Will need an adapter plate to the aw 30-40LE bell found on the 960.
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:29 PM   #18
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In the first place i would like to use the stock M90 gearbox if it's enough for my target.
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:47 PM   #19
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Getting hold of a 6 speed ZF from a more modern BMW M3 should be of no concern for you Keep the bellhousing from the "Autodramatic" and splice it with the ZF.

If you can weld yourself, making a equal length header is really not a too big hassle on a 960 or 7/900 platform, alot of space The trick is placing the turbo UNDER the header between the engine and fender (which is not a problem, you'll need new stronger and more rigid engine mounts anyway, it'll make a ton of torque), and the pipes really just need to be within 10-15% lengt on a turbo system. If you do just small changes to the cylinderhead a GT35 would do for 500+whp on 98 RON Even with stock RN type head with the older NA cams should provide 400 whp at 1 Bar boost (2 bar absolute).

My main concern about theese engines are the cylinder cracking problem, but if no more than 500ish whp, small aluminium bolt-pieces between the liners and jacket will make for the needed stability for long lasting durability.

I would also fit the earlier type NA cams in it, since the cam pullies are adjustable (the slots kan be made longer in a mill if necessary) and set the LCA angle to 115-116 deg. The stock compression on the later T6'es (of RN type) is something in the region of 8.8:1 so setting the cams straight up or even +3 deg. advance with that LCA angle should provide for a quite boost tolerant setup

If you are going to run stock inlet valves I'd fill some epoxy in the ports, thay are a bit overkill in size for the stock valves. I'd fill epoxy in the floor halfway down the port to shrink the MCSA a bit, and add a small amount to the "roof" just before the seat I happen to have cut one of theese heads in two so i could post a pro paint-edit on a picture of a cut-through stock N-series head (quite similar to the RN in the critical "needs epoxy" area) Somehow Volvo screwed up (as usual) the last portion of the port...
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Old 07-01-2013, 04:08 PM   #20
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In the first place i would like to use the stock M90 gearbox if it's enough for my target.
Thats your best bet.
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Old 07-01-2013, 04:43 PM   #21
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Getting hold of a 6 speed ZF from a more modern BMW M3 should be of no concern for you Keep the bellhousing from the "Autodramatic" and splice it with the ZF.

If you can weld yourself, making a equal length header is really not a too big hassle on a 960 or 7/900 platform, alot of space The trick is placing the turbo UNDER the header between the engine and fender (which is not a problem, you'll need new stronger and more rigid engine mounts anyway, it'll make a ton of torque), and the pipes really just need to be within 10-15% lengt on a turbo system. If you do just small changes to the cylinderhead a GT35 would do for 500+whp on 98 RON Even with stock RN type head with the older NA cams should provide 400 whp at 1 Bar boost (2 bar absolute).

My main concern about theese engines are the cylinder cracking problem, but if no more than 500ish whp, small aluminium bolt-pieces between the liners and jacket will make for the needed stability for long lasting durability.

I would also fit the earlier type NA cams in it, since the cam pullies are adjustable (the slots kan be made longer in a mill if necessary) and set the LCA angle to 115-116 deg. The stock compression on the later T6'es (of RN type) is something in the region of 8.8:1 so setting the cams straight up or even +3 deg. advance with that LCA angle should provide for a quite boost tolerant setup

If you are going to run stock inlet valves I'd fill some epoxy in the ports, thay are a bit overkill in size for the stock valves. I'd fill epoxy in the floor halfway down the port to shrink the MCSA a bit, and add a small amount to the "roof" just before the seat I happen to have cut one of theese heads in two so i could post a pro paint-edit on a picture of a cut-through stock N-series head (quite similar to the RN in the critical "needs epoxy" area) Somehow Volvo screwed up (as usual) the last portion of the port...
Yes,definitely want to put NA cams on it.Head is gonna be ported and polished.
Is it possible by any chance to put a complete NA head on from a 2.9 NA S80 or a 2.5,3.0 NA 960/S90?In this way i could get rid of the CVT head and dont have to fabricate spacer etc for the CVT cam's place.
In the S40s, the CVT 2.0litre engines have bigger inlet valves than the turbo engines.Is it the same logic in the big brother's engine too?
I think GT35 is a bit large,a GT30 is also enough for 400whp even on smaller engines.I am planning to run on E85, it helps in the performance too.
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:08 PM   #22
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Not sure what emissions stuff you got, but I'd think the most desirable head would be the pre air-injection heads - 92-94/95? Other countries may not have gotten that emmissions stuff.

Regardless, the older non-VVT head will bolt up. You need the old cams as well.

edit: I only know that from my own turbobricks reading and not any personal experience.
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:55 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Slevin View Post
Might be a stupid question but I am not familiar with getrag,so is that box straight fit to the whiteblock.How much hp/nm can the M90 handle?
Why do you need supra diff?Iirc later 960/S90 came with a kind of speer diff?Are they able to handle the performance?Are you doing custom intake?Sorry for the lot of questions but this t6 stuff is new to me.
Not a direct fit. You either need to make an adapter plate or buy one from KL Racing
The Supra diff has a good LSD and can handle decent power.780's had an IRS rear end and i do not trust the Volvo diff. Which reminds me, i need to get off of my a$$ and get the adapters from John.
As for the intake, i am going to get the lower part of the intake mani from the N/A inline 6's and build a custom mani off of that. They work pretty good because the flange and injector bungs are already there.
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Old 07-01-2013, 10:33 PM   #24
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The following is copied from a pm when I was purchasing this engine and yes this is Captain Bondo's. I didn't see it stated here but I know the pistons are 2nd OS T5R pistons. The project has been under way for far too long, much progress has been made unfortunate how long it has taken. But with the help of some new friends from here on the board it is getting closer. Only mistake I made when I bought the engine was that I didn't buy the car. Enjoy.
Ok here is some info:

1) Turbo is a Holset HX40 Pro with custom Garrett turbine housing. The turbo is in perfect condition and was fully rebuilt with all new bearings and seals. Only has a few hundred miles on it.

2) The EMS is a VEMS system, you can check it out here: http://www.vems.hu/

Go to the "vemstune" area and download the software. vemstune is the software used to tune it.

I really like it, nice hardware with real connectors. Makes megasquirt really seem like a cheap toy.

3) The fuel system is an aeromotive fuel pressure regulator and filter and deatchwerks 300lph pump with -6AN high flow fuel lines (not originally part of the "package" but bear with me on this)

4)Wastegate is a 60mm HKS GT style gate. It's just from ebay but works flawlessly.

5)Intercooler is from some sort of International heavy equipment machine. It's 12"x24"x3" thick.

All of these parts are pretty new.

6)Motor was rebuilt last winter with brand new Mahle pistons, RSI Forged H-Beam rods, and clevite bearings.

7) Yes I use the IPD HD 3 row radiator to cool it and it works really nicely.

8) I use the late style V70 electric fan with 2 speed relay.

9) Injectors are 1000cc Injector dynamics, best you can buy.

10) Cylinder head is custom modified for early 960 cams - the most aggressive stock cam possible.

11) Clutch is almost brand new and consists of a sach 707 pressure plate and southbend disc, almost $900 worth of clutch. The pressure plate is awesome but honestly the disc is a bit chattery. Honestly I'd consider buying a 240mm disc from clutchnet to use instead, but it works fine as is.

12) engine wiring harness is brand new and nicely built on the engine bay side, very oem looking, On the passenger side compartment it's a bit messy, but would be easy to clean up when it's all swapped.

13) exhaust is 3". stainless steel downpipe and aluminum exhaust, with a dynomax ultraflo muffler. Sounds great and very light weight.

14) Transmission is a euro M90, late style M90H. Nice shifting trans and quite strong. sometimes 4th gear is a bit grouchy going into gear but it's minor. Also this setup will do 133mpg in 3rd gear, so when racing it's rare you need to grab 4th in a hurry. hehehe. 4th and 5th are cruising gears.

15)the methanol kit is AEM pump and tank, all hooked up through VEMS, VEMS controls the pump, so you actually have a dedicated tuning map for the Methanol. It is fantastic!

some pics of the engine build here:
http://s289.photobucket.com/albums/l...ngine%20build/
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:35 AM   #25
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Thanks for all these info.I also got Vems ecu.
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