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Old 09-18-2018, 04:27 PM   #26
PromiseRing
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Originally Posted by Jack View Post
What bottom end ?
Pretty much any b21, and any 90+ b230 if it stays away from knock. Let me guess, Iím wrong? The hundreds of threads Iíve read are all wrong?

Hell, Iíve seen 300whp on a skinny rod motor for quite a while too
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:28 PM   #27
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SBE.
and infinitely more reliable than any ole Volvo 4 banger. Notice the uprising trend of people putting small blocks in almost EVERYTHING. Itís because they work.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:40 PM   #28
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I couldn't help but think there may be some relatively straightforward mods which might allow one to merge and pass on US freeways without constantly taching the poor little redblock out.

To that end, I'm looking at getting a good bit more pull in the 3KRPM range. Indeed, I found this cam set over @ IPD which looks promising as a start:

https://www.ipdusa.com/products/8771...e-cam-kit-b230

Bumping about, I've also gleaned that a 60mm (2.5") exhaust system will help a bit, too; but can't find headers anywhere for the 230 on this side of the pond (help?). Matter of fact, apart from the aforementioned cam kit, I can't find much of anything off-the-shelf for this car in the US which would give it the needed beans.

As an aside, I'm trying to stay out of turboland for now; as the required internal refits would be beyond my workspace/tool means at this juncture. In a nutshell, just looking for basic, modern roadworthiness with perhaps a bit of fun thrown in on top
Oh, lets run this back. It sounds like OP wants simple bolt-ons which are easily sourced and add mid-range grunt; making his free NA, Auto 740 more fun to drive. Right now something as involved as a +T is out of the question.

OP the short answer is there is hardly any "off the shelf" support for any of these cars, turbo or NA. If a +T is out, I assume swapping in a JV sourced longblock is not going to happen.

If you want easy bolt ons, you have what you've found... basically sourcing a turbo exhaust and retrofitting it to your NA for "more flow" and the VX cam. The exhaust really won't do much, but make it a bit louder (I know because I did this to my old NA940) and the VX cam won't do a whole lot, maybe a handful of hp at specific spot on the rev range. You'll lose some low rev power, so you'll have to couple that VX with an adjustable cam gear (Yoshifab, STS Machinine and IPD all offer variations). K&N filter won't do much, especially on an NA... so really yeah that's about it.

Honestly, the biggest bang for your buck when it comes to upping enjoyment would be from suspension mods. Some sport springs, sway bars, chassis bracing and if you want fancier shocks (bilstein or koni)... Be aware though... the older you are and the further you go down that road the less you'll like DDing the car. I recommend fresh gas pressurized shocks/struts, sways and lower chassis braces for a nice handling DD, sport/lowering springs if you want to hunker it down a bit.

That's my no BS 2 cents.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:40 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by PromiseRing View Post
Pretty much any b21, and any 90+ b230 if it stays away from knock. Let me guess, Iím wrong? The hundreds of threads Iíve read are all wrong?

Hell, Iíve seen 300whp on a skinny rod motor for quite a while too
Why need decades of experience when you can just google your way throught life.

Please contribute to this thread or go away.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:41 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Vincent Gagnon View Post
Why need decades of experience when you can just google your way throught life.

Please contribute to this thread or go away.
I did. OP should buy a turbo car or deal with a slow NA Volvo. Sometimes the truth hurts
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:42 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by PromiseRing View Post
Pretty much any b21, and any 90+ b230 if it stays away from knock. Let me guess, Iím wrong? The hundreds of threads Iíve read are all wrong?

Hell, Iíve seen 300whp on a skinny rod motor for quite a while too
any B21
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:43 PM   #32
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Oh, lets run this back. It sounds like OP wants simple bolt-ons which are easily sourced and add mid-range grunt; making his free NA, Auto 740 more fun to drive. Right now something as involved as a +T is out of the question.

OP the short answer is there is hardly any "off the shelf" support for any of these cars, turbo or NA. If a +T is out, I assume swapping in a JV sourced longblock is not going to happen.

If you want easy bolt ons, you have what you've found... basically sourcing a turbo exhaust and retrofitting it to your NA for "more flow" and the VX cam. The exhaust really won't do much, but make it a bit louder (I know because I did this to my old NA940) and the VX cam won't do a whole lot, maybe a handful of hp at specific spot on the rev range. You'll lose some low rev power, so you'll have to couple that VX with an adjustable cam gear (Yoshifab, STS Machinine and IPD all offer variations). K&N filter won't do much, especially on an NA... so really yeah that's about it.
Yes, a very bad $ to improvement ratio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SquareD View Post
Honestly, the biggest bang for your buck when it comes to upping enjoyment would be from suspension mods. Some sport springs, sway bars, chassis bracing and if you want fancier shocks (bilstein or koni)... Be aware though... the older you are and the further you go down that road the less you'll like DDing the car. I recommend fresh gas pressurized shocks/struts, sways and lower chassis braces for a nice handling DD, sport/lowering springs if you want to hunker it down a bit.

That's my no BS 2 cents.
What about gearing?

it's the secret of happiness duuuuuuuuude.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:44 PM   #33
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@John V, outside agitator:

Love your AT diagram. Will quote. Thank God for locking converters...

OK.

Project Expectations: Modest improvement
Toolset: Modest, but always growing
Skills: Generally beyond "Toolset"

Seriously, IPD seems to be pointing at a flat torque curve of 136 ft-lbs from 2.9 to 5.4KRPM with some implementation of their VX cam. When coupled with their adjustable cam gear in the full kit offering, all would seem to be moving me closer to my goal at this point: 100 BHP in the 3KRPM neighborhood. Top end can drop relatively steeply, if needed, to reach this endpoint. Don't need a race motor here.

Inspectionwise, what goes on under the hood is my business; and it will remain as such without issue. Therefore, extra sauce for the goose is certainly OK as long as we don't head into washdown land. Need to have some semblance of fuel economy for both financial and tribological reasons. Might be enticed to entertain water-vapor injection, if such a system exists and would be absolutely necessary. Good exhaust is in the cards, too.

The goal: Have enough punch to get up on the freeway without causing a pile-up; and have the ability to change lanes once there without infinite tail clearance. Truly, I'd be willing to bet Volvos like the base 740 maintain a good safety record on the books despite all of the accidents they leave behind in their mirrors...

In the final analysis, I'd need to get to the goal without turning the car into a polished-fender octane poodle; and without tanking core reliability along the way. Can be an incremental development if necessary.

BTW, great sigline quote

Thanks a bunch --
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:44 PM   #34
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I did. OP should buy a turbo car or deal with a slow NA Volvo. Sometimes the truth hurts
Allright, now that you did your part, can you go away please?
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:46 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Vincent Gagnon View Post
Yes, a very bad $ to improvement ratio.



What about gearing?

it's the secret of happiness duuuuuuuuude.
OK. Sounds like he probably isn't interested in something that involved. He also mentioned that he wanted to haul the family in this thing, so I assume he doesn't want it running 4200 rpm on the highway.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:46 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by curiousCat View Post

The goal: Have enough punch to get up on the freeway without causing a pile-up; and have the ability to change lanes once there without infinite tail clearance. Truly, I'd be willing to bet Volvos like the base 740 maintain a good safety record on the books despite all of the accidents they leave behind in their mirrors...

In the final analysis, I'd need to get to the goal without turning the car into a polished-fender octane poodle; and without tanking core reliability along the way. Can be an incremental development if necessary.
Ahem, Ahem GEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRIIIIIIIING!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:46 PM   #37
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op whats your location. if you're in cali you will be restricted with what you can do unless diesel title or smog exempt etc
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:47 PM   #38
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OK. Sounds like he probably isn't interested in something that involved and he also mentioned that he wanted to haul the family in this thing. So I assume he doesn't want it running 4200 rpm on the highway.
That's why overdrives exists.

It is the simplest bang for the buck solution.

Use the power you already have instead of throwing money for foo foo stuff that won't change much.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:53 PM   #39
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^^

B21 lower ends are as stout as it gets for stock Volvo engines. The PR is correct. Any 90+ 13mm rod engine can handle 300+ crank horse power for extended periods of time as long as it is tuned properly.

An 8 valve NA redblock is not going to make a good DD power plant for something like a full dress 740 at anything over 150 HP, IMO. It has to be wound up too high an RPM to make the power. That is what makes turbocharging so attractive. Good power, good manners, low compression, mild camshaft, quick starts and on and on. Put a 16 valve head into the mix and you have a different end result. Stock, they make the same HP as a stock B230FT.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:57 PM   #40
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I been under the impression that the B21F are junk
the b21ft are good and b23s
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:00 PM   #41
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B21FT without turbo is the best
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Any thread about cut springs, & or +T on a college students budget shall be sent to OT, flogged for 24 hours, participants in said thread shall point the OP in the correct thread link while simultaneously shaming them
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:02 PM   #42
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B21FT without turbo is the best
add a aw70 with a non working kickdown cable ... you can fall asleep getting to 65
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:03 PM   #43
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I been under the impression that the B21F are junk
the b21ft are good and b23s
Uhhh no. As far as I know they both use M rods and are as close to indestructible as a stock Volvo engine gets. But I havenít done enough research to confirm that.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:05 PM   #44
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Uhhh no. As far as I know they both use M rods and are as close to indestructible as a stock Volvo engine gets. But I havenít done enough research to confirm that.
been wrong on more than one occasion but its not just the rods that make it stout
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:06 PM   #45
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@Vincent Gagnon:
Thanks for the tip. Would like to know more of what you're thinking here

@Jack:
Location is not an issue for this. All kosher --

@everybody else:
Thanks for the ongoing comments...
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:07 PM   #46
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been wrong on more than one occasion but its not just the rods that make it stout
Youíre right. There was a difference in material used in the block casting and they wear extremely well in comparison to the b230 engines (which also wear pretty well).

But mainly itís the rods that make the bottom end so stout.
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:29 PM   #47
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You’re right. There was a difference in material used in the block casting and they wear extremely well in comparison to the b230 engines (which also wear pretty well).

But mainly it’s the rods that make the bottom end so stout and heavy and slow to rev compared with any design after 1969
Very interesting...now you know about cast iron?

Where'd you learn that? Link!

It couldn't possibly be a combination of a better wrist pin locations and longer rods and the resultant reduced tendency for side-thrust from less rod angulation, and pistons wanting to tip?

Why do you suppose everybody else in the world had gone away from pistons with compression heights in the 45-46mm range--except conservative old German Opel by the late 60s? And everything from Japan to USA to Germany and Sweden had gone to pistons with compression heights around 39,5* to 41,5mm...And by the early 80s around 35mm?
And by the 1990 around 30-32mm? Everybody..from Japan to Germany and America.

Do tell.
You have an opinion on everything, that's fine..But tell us some facts..

And you seem certain that the forged steel crankshaft that is bigger in every dimension that a Small Block Chevy crank contributed nothing, it was the rods that made the B21/b23 stout..Hmmmm Live and learn..



*Even Volvo themselves with the introduction 15 years after everybody else of the B200/B230 that had 39,7mm comp height.
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:10 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Very interesting...now you know about cast iron?

Where'd you learn that? Link!

It couldn't possibly be a combination of a better wrist pin locations and longer rods and the resultant reduced tendency for side-thrust from less rod angulation, and pistons wanting to tip?

Why do you suppose everybody else in the world had gone away from pistons with compression heights in the 45-46mm range--except conservative old German Opel by the late 60s? And everything from Japan to USA to Germany and Sweden had gone to pistons with compression heights around 39,5* to 41,5mm...And by the early 80s around 35mm?
And by the 1990 around 30-32mm? Everybody..from Japan to Germany and America.

Do tell.
You have an opinion on everything, that's fine..But tell us some facts..

And you seem certain that the forged steel crankshaft that is bigger in every dimension that a Small Block Chevy crank contributed nothing, it was the rods that made the B21/b23 stout..Hmmmm Live and learn..



*Even Volvo themselves with the introduction 15 years after everybody else of the B200/B230 that had 39,7mm comp height.
Yes also has a lot to do with crank steered vs piston steered rods. Again, just what I've read on here many many times.

Oh here's something else I read on here from Roy.

I am not a metallurgical engineer, I am just regurgitating what I've read on here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
The B21s are known for running quietly with 300,000+ miles on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
Piston material and nickel content in the blocks. The B21/23 engines run quiet almost forever until the bearings wear out and they start knocking. I've seen them with 450,000 miles on them running quietly. Quietly is a relative term. New, they were not a quiet engine. A 6 cylinder whiteblock is so smooth and quiet when in good shape I have accidentally tried to restart one while it was running. It was the first one I owned. A pristine 90K mile 960 sedan. I thought it has stalled after backing it up in my driveway. That was a horrible sound when the starter tried to engage the flywheel at 750 RPM. It's only happened once.
Here's the link you asked for.
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=343562
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:21 PM   #49
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Longevity of b21 and adding a turbo are not the same things

Skinny rod early 230 go forever also

Seen way more b21s with a hole in the block than early b230.
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:26 PM   #50
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Longevity of b21 and adding a turbo are not the same things

Skinny rod early 230 go forever also

Seen way more b21s with a hole in the block than early b230.
Didn't say they won't go forever, but that doesn't mean they wear as well as a b21. Idc how many redblocks you've neglected and blown up. Makes no difference to me.

Shut up
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