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Old 07-18-2018, 12:43 PM   #1
papsimagoo
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Default Loud valvetrain noise, but tight head.

89 240 with ~50k on block, head just returned from M&B (did lots of RSI heads) here in Portland, tipped/relashed original valves(valves looked good), guides good, exhaust seals replaced,

Specs upon build

Engine:
2.5l B230F + T by RSI
RSI 86mm Billet Stroker Crank
RSI 158mm H-Beam Connecting Rods
RSI Waveguide 8v Turbo Pistons
Cometic MLS Head Gasket
RSI Stage 2+ Cylinder Head Prototype
RSI Race Valvetrain Kit
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RSI Twin Scrool SS Turbo Header
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Greddy Type S Blowoff Valve
Holset HX40/Garrett Hybrid Turbo
Isuzu NPR Intercooler
NIW Motoring Intake Manifold
Megasquirt 2 EMS
Mitsubishi Coils
Injector Dynamics 1600cc Fuel Injectors


Valve clearances
Starting from front of car.
1- .002-.003”
2- .009- .010
3- .006
4- .006-.007
5- .007
6- .007
7- .009- .010
8- .007
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Old 07-18-2018, 01:00 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papsimagoo View Post
Valve clearances
Starting from front of car.
1- .002-.003”
2- .009- .010
3- .006
4- .006-.007
5- .007
6- .007
7- .009- .010
8- .007
Uhhh maybe I’m reading this wrong but isn’t that very very tight?
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Old 07-18-2018, 01:05 PM   #3
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Yeah if these numbers are accurate they're about half what you need. I think spec is 0.3-0.4mm, or 0.012"-0.016". I go 0.015".
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Old 07-18-2018, 01:29 PM   #4
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RSI ran their stage 2/3 heads this way. Maybe someone can chime in why.
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Old 07-18-2018, 01:35 PM   #5
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That does seem very tight, but that wouldn't make any noise. It would just be deathly quiet. Quiet valves are burnt valves.

Hrd to tell what the clicking is, but to my ear, via that video, it certainly doesn't sound like wrist pin or con rod noises. Those are usually a little 'clunkier' and less 'clicky'. Although the one time I had a broken freaking wrist pin(!!!) it fooled me into thinking it was valve train clicks, I replaced all the lifters and the noise was unchanged.

Is the sound unchanged as the motor warms up? Just thinking the usual redblock piston slap. Also, exhaust leaks in and around the head can sound very much like a mechanical ticking noise.
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Old 07-18-2018, 02:14 PM   #6
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The valves should be fine...., this noise was there from the first rotation. Doesn't sound like a leak, but i'll keep that in mind, had all holes tig'ed and new gaskets including turbo.


When the head was off i felt no crank play by pushing the pistons down in the right way. Also no slack on any cylinders around each top dead center point and rotating back and forth. Pistons pushed in multi corners checking ring condition/wrist pins/wear, no scratching or marring, just cross hatch.

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Old 07-18-2018, 02:44 PM   #7
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Definitely loosen up those clearances. Anything that tight you risk not even closing. Even with my IPD cam once the clearances went under about .006" the idle went to crap, vacuum went to crap, got to be harder to start when cold, same thing on a couple cars, back when we were dealing with the crappy valve situation.

As for the noise, no change on accel or decel, no change in loading, seems to be in time with cam speed rather than crank speed.

You also mention a prototype cam. Any details on the lobe shape? Could it be allowing the valves to snap closed due to the shape?
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Old 07-18-2018, 02:46 PM   #8
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Sam had some noise. I think I may have heard it, but I don't remember if I did, and I don't remember what it sounded like. I just remember talking with him about clearances and there's this old thread about what he did to resolve it.

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=253298

I want to say he had valve clearances as tight as 0.011" (mentions 012-014 in the thread). That sounded like a potential issue to me. My personal experience is somewhat limited, but I've never known 0.012" to be sufficient valve clearance, especially on the exhaust side, especially on a turbo car that will see additional boost (heat).

Bentley:
cold, adjusting: 0.014" - 0.016"
hot, adjusting: 0.016" - 0.018"

I lapped valves and assembled a stock-hardware 530 head for our F+T 240 lemons car. I aimed for the low end of the range on the intake and the high end of the range on the exhaust. Min 0.017" on the exhaust (cold). It ran a few races at 12-14psi for 7-10hr days of endurance racing in the middle of the summer. Sounded normal at idle, a bit noisy as expected from being at the high end of the range and not having the rubber bits on the tip of the valves, but no clicky click like your vid.

Could be an issue like Sam's? Worth checking out...sucks to have to pull the head, but it's better than dropping a valve. I would also question why there's such a variance in clearances? Those are all out of spec, and vary by at least 0.006" from smallest to largest. No reason for that if it's apart and shims can be swapped. That looks more like a measurement of the clearances and not an attempt to adjust shims to get the clearances right.

good luck.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:06 PM   #9
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I see you say the higher stage heads are ran tighter, but whats up with the number 1? So far off from the others? Almost no clearance at all.

....didn't read the post above, but agreed. Higher clearances for gp
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:35 PM   #10
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What is a race valvetrain kit? Lightweight buckets or something?
I would swap in a different cam or other valve train parts to see if it stays or changes. Better than pulling a head until your certain it's not valve train.
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:08 PM   #11
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^^^^ isn't a bad idea, rules out the cam profile from causing issues. Should only take an hour or so, unless you've got other TB'ers present, then it'll take a full day...
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:44 PM   #12
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This head is 40 intake /48 exhaust, bronze guides, stiff springs, very aggressive cam. I don't know the specifics
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:56 PM   #13
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Stethoscope.

Sounds like exhaust leak.
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Old 07-19-2018, 12:21 AM   #14
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What brand valves do you have in the head? I had a head with Si SS valves that I bought from RSI. There not a direct fit by any means. I also used M&B to do the work as well. In order to have the valves in tolerance the thinnest shims were required with the stage three rsi turbo cam. I never ran that cylinder head in a car at the time. I shortly had them removed and bought REV SS intake and inconel exhaust valves that are direct fit without cutting the stems.
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Old 07-19-2018, 12:31 AM   #15
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Hmm, good point on that one. If he has the SI stuff in there, there is a potential they were tipped enough to get the install height correct, but that could have dropped the tip below the retainer height, causing the followers to hit the retainers. I only say that after seeing what had to be done to install the SI's in my head way back (and later to start selling the REV stuff).
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Old 07-19-2018, 02:22 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 77volvo245 View Post
What brand valves do you have in the head? I had a head with Si SS valves that I bought from RSI. There not a direct fit by any means. I also used M&B to do the work as well. In order to have the valves in tolerance the thinnest shims were required with the stage three rsi turbo cam. I never ran that cylinder head in a car at the time. I shortly had them removed and bought REV SS intake and inconel exhaust valves that are direct fit without cutting the stems.
SI valves

I take back the not getting louder as warming up, does increase.

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Old 07-19-2018, 09:51 AM   #17
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Good luck, keep an eye on the clearances. If you see them tightening up, plan to replace. Seems some had good luck, some had really bad luck. I know of 4 cars so far that I've worked on that had bad ones.
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:58 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papsimagoo View Post


Valve clearances
Starting from front of car.
1- .002-.003”
2- .009- .010
3- .006
4- .006-.007
5- .007
6- .007
7- .009- .010
8- .007
That's really tight on lash, even with a race cam. Generally valve lash would be .006-.008in on intake and .008-.010in on the exhaust with a performance cam (except redblocks, which run double that). 2-3 thou lash is how you burn up a valve.

Issues with SI ss valves (really ANY cheap ss valve): valve face eroding from high heat on turbo cars, the triple grooves getting beat and mushrooming out (even with ground down keepers to clamp on the stem), and the valve stem galling when used in cast iron guides.

If M&B were able to reuse the original valves, then the keeper grooves probably weren't beat to the point where the valve can't be removed.
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:18 PM   #19
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That's the same issue I had on the SI's except the galling since I had bronze. 2 other cars I know of that had issues are bone stock turbo cars, one that hardly ever saw boost even, on a 240Ti. Seems like just a wickedly soft material.
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:53 PM   #20
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I had an issue where the machine shop setup my head by tipping the valve stems. Basically taking up the lash by grinding down the tip of the valve.. This caused an unforeseen issue with the tip of the valve being lower than the top of the spring retainer when assembled in the head. When the bucket comes down to open the valve it pushes the retainer down before it actually moves the valve causing the bucket to slap the top of the valve stem causing a hell of a noise somewhat similar to your noise.. I also would advice against going so tight on your lash as it can cause its own additional problems.


Check out my post about a similar issue a few years ago.. Thanks Towery for the look up


http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=253298



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Old 07-19-2018, 08:32 PM   #21
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Does anyone else have input on whether a camshaft profile could make this issue. I've had this noise since before "rebuild". I don't know if I can even swap in a cam since it's already running super thin shims. Though I haven't heard the exact measurements or measured them myself. So weird. I talked with M&B and Brian offered to put in new valves for free, and also said that the spring retainers were machined to keep the valve from being lower than the retainer....I'm still newish to valvetrain, so I said okay.
Guess I can go pull cam and shims now to see what the thinnest shim is to see if I can swap in say a B cam or something I can get my hands on.
Here's some more video from multiple locations. The moving back and forth is for "stereo isolating"
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:39 PM   #22
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Thanks towery and roadracer for the info. If the cam coming out is a worthy trial I will, otherwise, REV here we come. Does anyone know a username close to Gester144 or something similar, hear he might have some valves. But I'm looking for 40/48
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:28 PM   #23
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If the noise was there before the rebuild, that changes things slightly, since it would for the most part rule out whatever was installed during the rebuild. If you had the cam on there before, on a stock head and it was noisy, that largely rules out the head, but would make the cam more suspect.

Got your pm on the valves, response coming in a few.
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Old 07-20-2018, 01:28 AM   #24
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Cam looks fine though and I haven't heard anything about a cam causing this kind of issue. Need to find a source for drop in 40/48 valves available now
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Old 07-20-2018, 06:31 AM   #25
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it would be nice to have some specs on the can other than stage 2-3 bull**** what does that mean? who started that? people trying to sell cams? hi-po cams are noisier than there soccer mom counterparts, due to faster acceleration rates and ramps that drop the valve faster.YOU need things like recommended hot lash clearance, what centerline is it ground on, lift at .50 thousand tappet rise and the lobe seperation angle.Then u will be able to shim it properly and degree it properly and then determine how loud it will be. The solid cam in old 327 calls for .23 intake and .30 clearance hot so it's kinda loud, now the hydraulic roller in the super sport is also kinds loud, which surprised me but that's the way it is. s.s.i. valves are junk i run milidon severe duty only, I've never droppef a valve and the big block uses a 2.3 diameter intake so it's a pretty heavy valve... even more so at 7 k
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