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Old 04-20-2018, 04:01 PM   #1
Fred Gwynne
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Default I'm stuck trying to get the camshaft out.

Hi folks,

I'm trying to remove the stock cam in my b230f motor and then stick a "b" cam into it. As the hayne's manual has instructed me to do so I have removed the cam cover, removed the cam bolts and cam collars. So the cam has kicked up in the back by the firewall because the downward pressure from the collars has been removed. However, the front is still stuck down.

Should I have removed the cam timing gear sprocket before I popped the collars off the cam?

If I try to remove it now will that eff the timing up?

Maybe I should slide the belt off the sprocket while the sprocket is still in place? Will that be a bitch putting back on because of the tension on the belt?



I'm guessing I didn't read as much of the Hayne's manual as I should have.

Please see the picture below.

I appreciate anyone's thoughts/help about/with this. Thanks very much.



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Old 04-20-2018, 04:04 PM   #2
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You need to take the belt off before removing the cam caps. You'll need to get everything lined up again properly when the new cam goes in.

From the general looks of it, I'd get a new belt too.
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Old 04-20-2018, 04:05 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMc View Post
You need to take the belt off before removing the cam caps. You'll need to get everything lined up again properly when the new cam goes in.

From the general looks of it, I'd get a new belt too.
Thanks very much and I was also thinking the belt ought to be replaced. This can all be done with the motor still in the car, right?
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Old 04-20-2018, 04:06 PM   #4
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Absolutely.

The main PITA is removing and replacing that pulley on the front of the crank.

If you ABSOLUTELY insist on cutting corners, you could de-tension the belt (loosen the bolt on the tensioner, and then *HHHRRNG* pull it toward the passenger side to compress it and loosen the belt. Then clip the belt in place on the crank/aux/cam gear and remove the cam gear from the cam.
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Old 04-20-2018, 04:14 PM   #5
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I'm watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVZ-DpDX1TQ and it looks like I'll need to get my hands on a crankshaft pulley holder tool. Maybe I can just push down on the cam from the back, install the caps and valve cover, and then keep driving until that tool comes in the mail?
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Old 04-20-2018, 04:19 PM   #6
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Be CAREFUL doing that. The cam is cast iron, it really doesn't take a whole hell of a lot of force in a weird direction (i.e. bending) to break it.
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Old 04-20-2018, 04:24 PM   #7
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I'm glad you said that. I'll skip pushing down on it.
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Old 04-20-2018, 04:30 PM   #8
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I just broke the end of a cam off once, pretty gently wiggling a cam gear off (16V PZ cam, but they're almost identical to 8V cams).
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Old 04-20-2018, 04:31 PM   #9
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There's a special tool for holding the cam while removing the caps. It's supposed to keep the cam from cocking and breaking the thrust flanges. It's the one on the top left of this pic.



Do you have a shim kit? You're probably going to need to adjust some of the valves with a different cam. I have the above kit available to rent and I can include the B230 crank holding tool as well.
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Old 04-20-2018, 04:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiperfauto View Post
There's a special tool for holding the cam while removing the caps. It's supposed to keep the cam from cocking and breaking the thrust flanges. It's the one on the top left of this pic.



Do you have a shim kit? You're probably going to need to adjust some of the valves with a different cam. I have the above kit available to rent and I can include the B230 crank holding tool as well.


Awesome I'll give that some thought and let you know. I appreciate the offer.
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Old 04-20-2018, 06:16 PM   #11
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Okay so I'm cutting corners because I'm flying to TX tomorrow for a week. I have tension taken off the belt and a c-clamp keeping the belt onto the sprocket. When I start putting pressure on the bolt into the sprocket the camshaft starts to turn. Any suggestions about how I can prevent that? The car is an automatic in park. Thanks again.

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Old 04-20-2018, 06:40 PM   #12
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The tool on the top right in my pic is for holding the cam pulley.

There are universal tools made as well or you could try to make something.



You really shouldn't rush the job. Get all the parts and tools you need ahead of time. Just slapping in a cam without adjusting the clearances or changing that suspect belt is asking for trouble. Do the cam/aux shaft and crank seals while your at it and you won't have to go back in for a while.
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Old 04-20-2018, 07:19 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiperfauto View Post
The tool on the top right in my pic is for holding the cam pulley.

There are universal tools made as well or you could try to make something.



You really shouldn't rush the job. Get all the parts and tools you need ahead of time. Just slapping in a cam without adjusting the clearances or changing that suspect belt is asking for trouble. Do the cam/aux shaft and crank seals while your at it and you won't have to go back in for a while.
I hear ya entirely. I had only purchased the cam, the cam seals, a valve cover gasket and a haynes manual (for less than $3!). I was assuming that was all that was needed. As far as the valve clearance I was planning on taking the car to a pro and have him adjust them.
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Old 04-20-2018, 09:01 PM   #14
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Fred if you're not up for setting the valves you really should have a pro do the whole job.
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Old 04-20-2018, 09:26 PM   #15
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As he would have to remove the cam to change the shims
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Old 04-21-2018, 06:21 PM   #16
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I may be losing my mind. I said the heck with it and thought I would let the pros do the whole thing. So I let the tensioner put tension back on the belt, tightened the tensioner down, tightened down all the cam caps by the correct specs as described in the manual, installed the cam shaft cover with new a new gasket, connected all the spark plug wires onto the correct plugs and connected the grounding wire from the firewall to the cam cover. When I turn the key the car's motor is cranking over but nothing seems to be firing at all. It has that sort of sound that says it's gonna just keep cranking and nothing more.

Do you folks have any suggestions?

I never took the cam pulley off the cam or the belt off the pulley so I can't imagine that I messed up the timing.

Thanks
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Old 04-21-2018, 06:50 PM   #17
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Check the crank position sensor wire at the back of the head between the valve cover and firewall.

Also, is that a hole in your water hose going from the thermostat?
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Old 04-21-2018, 08:21 PM   #18
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Don't worry about messing up the cam timing, you can correct that later while replacing that old timing belt. Besides that, the cam sprocket needs to come off to remove the back timing belt cover.
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Old 04-21-2018, 10:45 PM   #19
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The timing on the intermediate shaft gear that drives the distributor may be off a tooth
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Old 04-22-2018, 12:36 AM   #20
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I would be following this when I do my swap to the b cam:

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showpo...3&postcount=64
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Old 04-22-2018, 01:22 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Gwynne View Post
I may be losing my mind. I said the heck with it and thought I would let the pros do the whole thing. So I let the tensioner put tension back on the belt, tightened the tensioner down, tightened down all the cam caps by the correct specs as described in the manual, installed the cam shaft cover with new a new gasket, connected all the spark plug wires onto the correct plugs and connected the grounding wire from the firewall to the cam cover. When I turn the key the car's motor is cranking over but nothing seems to be firing at all. It has that sort of sound that says it's gonna just keep cranking and nothing more.

Do you folks have any suggestions?

I never took the cam pulley off the cam or the belt off the pulley so I can't imagine that I messed up the timing.

Thanks
It's a pretty straight forward job and if you listen to the advice from JohnMC, Johnlane and highperfauto, you will be able to complete it without damaging anything. I would just get the right special tools, a new belt, a HEPU water pump, the cam seal, aux shaft seal and front crank seal, the shim kit and do the whole job right and not have to tear into the front end for the rest of the cars expected life. Learn something new, build your confidence and save money. Even with the cost of the tools and preventative maintenance parts, you'll be saving money compared to having a pro do it. FYI, paying a professional to do this will cost around $600-$1000.

Good news about this motor is it's not interference, meaning you will not damage the valves or pistons by getting the timing wrong.

PS: I'd also take a look at the rubber on your harmonic balancer. If it is dry rotted it may start slipping and make it tough for you to check the ignition timing as well as causing low alternator output and and power steering and AC issues.
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Old 04-22-2018, 08:50 AM   #22
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Hi Fred. I did all this on the street one time. :(
Normally I'd do it at the garage with help and loads of great tools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Gwynne View Post
... I have tension taken off the belt ...
At any point in the proceedings did you let the belt on the right hand side go slack and one or more sprockets turned a bit?
Your cam belt looks on its last legs so you do need one of them.
To turn the camshaft bolt I used molegrips on the camshaft, tiny bit of penetrating oil behind the bolt, and a sharp tap with a small hammer on my spanner while the cambelt was wedged down below with some wooden wedges so nothing at all could move : because if anything moved I was into far more work ...
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Old 04-22-2018, 06:08 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitroboie View Post
Check the crank position sensor wire at the back of the head between the valve cover and firewall.

Also, is that a hole in your water hose going from the thermostat?

Yup it is going from the thermostat. The picture really makes it look more dramatic than it is. The hose itself isn't punctured entirely right through there but I do intend to replace the hose when I get back home later this week.

The crank position sensor wire? Is that this braded wire from the firewall to the valve cover in the pic below? I thought that was just a ground. Please let me know. Thanks


[IMG]Image and video hosting by TinyPic[/IMG]

Edit: I just found out what the sensor wire is. Maybe I did accidently wiggle/nudge the connector enough to break the circuit. That's first on my list to take a look at when I get home. Got my fingers crossed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgojsj5qHZg

Last edited by Fred Gwynne; 04-22-2018 at 06:26 PM..
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Old 04-22-2018, 06:12 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esmth View Post
The timing on the intermediate shaft gear that drives the distributor may be off a tooth
The gears/sprockets were all wiggled a bit when I tugged on the belt in both directions but I don't believe any teeth were skipped over. Unless the tension is so loose down there that it did happen...


Thanks for your thoughts.
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Old 04-22-2018, 06:12 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralBurrito View Post
I would be following this when I do my swap to the b cam:

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showpo...3&postcount=64
Awesome thank you very much.
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