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Old 07-04-2019, 03:25 AM   #351
Alex Buchka
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Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
Gah-dang.

If I didn't know better I'd say that this is the product of a rocket surgeon.
Thanks! I got out of the rocket surgery game years ago though.

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Originally Posted by Hank Scorpio View Post
I REALLY want a ride in this. Badly.

Great job you guys
Thanks Doug, you know where to find it. I'm planning on going to the VCOA national meet in SLO this September, should have it much more sorted by then.

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Originally Posted by dbarton View Post
It looks very similar to the one in Peggen Anderson's Group A Nordica car.
Dave B
That's definitely the 100% unobtanium 1031 version. I have the slightly more approachable, and arguably worse, 1030 diff housing that was bolted on to various stock 240's in the early 80's.


Been driving it around the last few days, tinkering with the calibration a lot. E-Throttle is awesome and lets you do all kinds of fun stuff. The ITB's flow a lot of air at miniscule throttle angles which makes tip-in driveability and smooth take offs from a stop pretty poor. To solve this I've been dicking around with blending in airflow from the idle valve. BMW actually did this from the factory on the E46 M3 so the idle valve is massively oversized for just idle control. At 5% pedal I have 100% DC on the idle valve but only command 1% on the throttle plate. This makes the engine really smooth on take off and allows for smooth cruising at constant speed. I still have some jerking when transitioning from drive to overrun and vice-versa but I think I can smooth that last little bit with timing adjustments.
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Old 07-04-2019, 04:19 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Alex Buchka View Post
BMW actually did this from the factory on the E46 M3 so the idle valve is massively oversized for just idle control. At 5% pedal I have 100% DC on the idle valve but only command 1% on the throttle plate. This makes the engine really smooth on take off and allows for smooth cruising at constant speed.
cool.
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Old 07-20-2019, 12:06 PM   #353
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Don't know what to say or add, I'm very impressed.
Very very nice build guys!
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Don't forget about properly seasoning it on HF jackstands for a couple years whilst dreaming about big powah 'goals'.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:00 AM   #354
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Ditched the belt driven power steering pump and installed a cooler and an electro-hydraulic unit from an R53 BMW Mini. Less assist but no more squealing pump and nuked fluid.




I'm very curious about this steering pump installation.

Is it mounted under the front of the car? Do you happen to have a pic of it showing where it's mounted, not quite so close-up?

I really like the idea of ditching the belt driven pump.
Dave
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Old 07-22-2019, 01:46 PM   #355
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I really like the idea of ditching the belt driven pump.
Dave
You could power it with a Honda generator installed in the trunk.
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GODDAMNIT, IT WASN'T RATTLE CANNED. IT WAS EARL SCHEIBED AND *MATCHED* TO A RATTLE CAN
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:02 PM   #356
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I appreciate the polymer coated SS hose and use of P clamps.
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My knob has a big chunk of steel on it
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:58 PM   #357
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Quote:
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You could power it with a Honda generator installed in the trunk.
So there are opinions saying it uses way too many amps?
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:45 PM   #358
Alex Buchka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JW240 View Post
Don't know what to say or add, I'm very impressed.
Very very nice build guys!
Thanks man!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarton View Post
I'm very curious about this steering pump installation.

Is it mounted under the front of the car? Do you happen to have a pic of it showing where it's mounted, not quite so close-up?

I really like the idea of ditching the belt driven pump.
Dave
I'll get some more shots tonight after work that show the location and bracket more clearly. The level of steering assist is definitely lower than having a belt driven pump but I'm not bothered by it at all.

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Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
I appreciate the polymer coated SS hose and use of P clamps.
Judicious use of p-clamps is the only way to go.
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Old 07-23-2019, 08:51 PM   #359
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So there are opinions saying it uses way too many amps?
Dave
Wondering what puts more drag on the motor. Spinning a belt PS pump or supplying the power to spin the Mini pump.
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Old 07-23-2019, 09:06 PM   #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarton View Post
Wondering what puts more drag on the motor. Spinning a belt PS pump or supplying the power to spin the Mini pump.
Amps can be increased with a larger alternator and corresponding wiring upgrade.
Spinning another accessory using engine power will always rob more engine power. Even with a larger alternator, since you having less rotating accessories.
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Old 07-27-2019, 05:49 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by sksmith View Post
Spinning another accessory using engine power will always rob more engine power. Even with a larger alternator, since you having less rotating accessories.
Steve
This assertion smells funny.

A well engineered belt drive can be 98% efficient.

80% efficiency is a good number for both and alternator and a small DC motor.
Considering that the alternator is also belt driven you have, optimistically,
98% x 80% x 80% or 63% efficiency if you generate electricity and then turn a
shaft with it in a typical automotive situation.

Electric power steering pumps can be more efficient than a belt driven pump, but
for other reasons, predominantly that assist is only needed when actually turning,
and the assist required is inversely proportional to road speed.

Belt driven loads need to be able to cope with a wide range of input speeds, and this
leads to inefficiency also.

Comparing watts to watts, it is more efficient to drive a hydraulic pump directly
from the crank versus generating electricity from the crank then driving the pump
from an electric motor.
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Old 07-29-2019, 10:26 AM   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sim View Post
This assertion smells funny.

A well engineered belt drive can be 98% efficient.

80% efficiency is a good number for both and alternator and a small DC motor.
Considering that the alternator is also belt driven you have, optimistically,
98% x 80% x 80% or 63% efficiency if you generate electricity and then turn a
shaft with it in a typical automotive situation.

Electric power steering pumps can be more efficient than a belt driven pump, but
for other reasons, predominantly that assist is only needed when actually turning,
and the assist required is inversely proportional to road speed.

Belt driven loads need to be able to cope with a wide range of input speeds, and this
leads to inefficiency also.

Comparing watts to watts, it is more efficient to drive a hydraulic pump directly
from the crank versus generating electricity from the crank then driving the pump
from an electric motor.
It all seems pretty academic to me until someone actually starts measuring amps used to run the electric pump, etc. But in quick google searches I'm finding info that suggests dyno testing on engines with belt driven PS pumps show it can lose as much as 8 ft lbs at peak torque.
Dave B
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Old 07-29-2019, 12:16 PM   #363
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OEMs did it for packaging reasons. The cool thing for efficiency is now EPAS.
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Old 07-29-2019, 03:03 PM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
The cool thing for efficiency is now EPAS.
For those who have manual racks.
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Old 07-29-2019, 03:34 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by dbarton View Post
For those who have manual racks.
Dave
Thats not true at all. Plenty of people with power racks are still using EPAS
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Old 07-30-2019, 08:12 AM   #366
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Thats not true at all. Plenty of people with power racks are still using EPAS
I had no idea about that. I want to see a 240 with that.
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:35 PM   #367
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I’m interested to hear some more colored feedback after you’ve driven it a bit. I’ve not yet driven a car with any level of electric assist that had satisfactory steering feel. I haven’t driven a new 911 but all of the modern BMWs et al are number than the back of Lindsay Lohan’s throat on a Saturday night.
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Old 07-30-2019, 11:00 PM   #368
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I like EPAS on my TSX and in the Fit back when I had that.
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Old 08-13-2019, 04:48 AM   #369
Alex Buchka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sim View Post

Electric power steering pumps can be more efficient than a belt driven pump, but
for other reasons, predominantly that assist is only needed when actually turning,
and the assist required is inversely proportional to road speed.
Pretty much exactly this. There is no efficiency to be gained from bolting on an electro-hydraulic pump and running it full blast all the time. It will, all things being equal, always use more power due to conversion losses. That being said, I didn't do this for any perceived efficiency benefit, it was only for packaging. The car has fairly heavy steering now which I am actually a bit ambivalent about, I have no need for effortless parking lot steering and feel at speed is about the same as before.

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Originally Posted by blkaplan View Post
Thats not true at all. Plenty of people with power racks are still using EPAS
Exactly. We put a prius EPAS column in our E36 lemons race car. The thing kept nuking power steering pumps and tossing the serpentine belt. All we did was loop the lines on the rack and mount the column. The torsion bar isn't even locked out in the spool valve and it works great. Steering feel is slightly worse but it's not exactly razor sharp from the factory so

In preparation for dyno tuning I added some instrumentation to the car. I wanted exhaust gas temperature and fuel pressure monitoring in the ECU to make sure things weren't going pear shaped. Bought a Setra transducer on ebay and made a short M12 to D38999 jumper harness that connected to one of the spare I/O bulkhead connectors Karl set up on the engine harness.





I didn't get any pictures of the EGT probe work but the engine now has 8 K-type sensors on it. One for each cylinder, one in the collector, and one in the downpipe. I connected everything to an 8 channel thermocouple to CAN interface box from AEM. Apart from an intial SNAFU where I had to learn the hard way that the AEM box does not support grounded sensors, everything went together pretty smoothly.

I took last Friday off work to meet up with my ace calibrator friend Neel at a shop in the inland empire called Nine-11 Design. It's a high-end Porsche shop that graciously allowed an old Volvo to besmirch their Dynapack for a day.





The Dynapack absorber unit was a very tight fit on the passenger side of the car. While bolting up the hub adapter I was nervous about clearance but it just about fit.



Their cooling fan setup is highly optimized for air cooled Porsches so we had to be careful to keep temperatures in check. There just wasn't enough airflow to keep up with steady state operation above about 4000rpm so for everything after that we just did transient pulls from 2500 to redline.

The fuel map was already 90% good from road tuning so we focused on timing and boost control. From a baseline of 220whp at 8psi we ended at about 320whp and 325lbft of torque at 14psi. The day was cut short due to some scheduling conflicts with Neel so we ended it there. I'm going back in a few weeks to continue dialing in timing, boost control, and knock detection. There were no signs of detonation at 14psi so I'm confident the car is capable of 350whp or more on 91 octane pump gas.

I couldn't get the stupid embed function to work but here is a short clip I took of one of the pulls we did.

https://youtu.be/DeyrS2Kk1yY
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Old 08-13-2019, 07:23 PM   #370
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Great numbers!!!
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Old 08-14-2019, 12:20 AM   #371
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Seriously!
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Old 08-14-2019, 11:42 AM   #372
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Probably making 365 - 375 at the flywheel right now. This thing scooted before, should be a rocket now. Will need to verify!
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Old 08-14-2019, 12:09 PM   #373
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Looking forward to the post describing accidental 4th gear wheelspin...assuming traction control hasn't been set up yet.
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Old 08-16-2019, 01:04 AM   #374
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Thanks dudes! Pretty happy with the results so far. I'm confident the combination has considerably more power in it. Going to add some pressure sensors to the manifold and downpipe before the next session to keep an eye on total delta P across the engine and turbine.

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Looking forward to the post describing accidental 4th gear wheelspin...assuming traction control hasn't been set up yet.
The car still has a stupid open diff so it's a one tire fire party in 1st through 3rd. I don't think the engine in it's current state will ever have enough power for a 4th gear rolling burnout.
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