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Old 01-03-2019, 01:26 AM   #1
gsellstr
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Default Riddle me this...B230FT oil leak

Been trying to figure this one out, nothing makes sense.


I've got engine oil showing up on the pass. side of the water pump, right by the coolant hose, and following the timing cover to the oil pan, and so on.

- The oil is also on the block, covers about 2-3" of the block, head gasket surface down.

- Cylinder head is dry, cam, intermediate shaft and crank seals are dry.

- Timing cover is dry inside the lower cover, wet outside the lower cover.
- Rear timing cover is dry against the cylinder head.
- Bearing cap has been resealed against the head.
- Turbo oil feed is via front oil galley plug, verified no leaks.
- This leak showed up rather suddenly.

- Oil pressure is 4.5b cold at anything over 1000rpm, 3b hot at 2500, never seen 5b at any point.
- Head stud torque confirmed (ARP studs, torqued to 120ft.lbs years back, loosened 1/4t and retorqued to 120, no change in the leak).


So, at this point, I'm looking at either a head gasket failure (gasket is a Cometic, surprised it would suddenly start leaking) or a timing cover gasket failure. There's no oil passages in the area this leak is coming from on the head surface, but the oil on top of the pass side only on the water pump seems strange. If it's whipped from the e-fan, that might make a little sense if it's the timing cover. Timing cover gasket is a load easier to change than the head gasket though.


Thoughts?
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Old 01-03-2019, 02:18 AM   #2
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Head gasket leak
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Old 01-03-2019, 09:55 AM   #3
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Cam seal? Especially the outer diameter part of the seal. Can the head gasket be re-torqued?
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Old 01-03-2019, 03:53 PM   #4
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Cam seal ID and OD, along with the nose of the cam are 100% dry.
Head gasket is what I'm leaning towards, or inner timing cover. Strange though, since the closest oil passage in the head is back a ways from the front of the head where the oil is showing up. Also there's NO oil behind the timing cover against the head or along the head/block surface behind the cover which makes me wonder about fan whipped oil from the timing cover itself.
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Old 01-03-2019, 04:44 PM   #5
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How's the oil filler cap gasket? and flametrap (or just the hoses)?

The main oil galley runs to the head between #1 and #2. There's an oil galley plug in the block just above and behind the #1 coolant freeze plug, but I expect you've inspected this one already.

Edit: I was looking through pictures for something else but noticed that there's a threaded galley plug under the lower left edge of the cam gear. It's probably hidden by the timing belt backside cover. I don't know if it's for oil or coolant, but I'd guess oil to all the cam bearings. (Picture shows a 530 head on a B21FT block.)

Last edited by bobxyz; 01-03-2019 at 10:37 PM..
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:11 AM   #6
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Cylinder head is 100% dry, so that plug isn't suspect. Forgot there was one there.

Looking at the pic you posted, I've got oil on the block from the half moon under the #1 runner forward along that seam, down the water pump gasket seam, and on the top rib of the pump that goes from the water inlet towards the pulley flange. No oil further up on the water pump or on any part of the head. The heater return pipe is dry, radiator hose is dry, driver side of the water pump is dry, aluminum lower timing cover is wet outside the plastic cover, dry inside.

Just degreased the thing with some serious cleaner, letting that dry then I'll take a short drive and see where it's starting from.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:39 AM   #7
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Had a crazy oil leak on my engine and it turned out to be this.

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=339514

Was able to slow it to an almost stop with some JB Weld until I procured a replacement head from the salvage yard.
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Old 01-04-2019, 04:04 PM   #8
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I'm hoping it's not something like that. It seems to originate at the gasket area, doesn't mean the head isn't cracked under the gasket though. Hopefully take it for a run tonight, see where it starts seeping from.
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:23 PM   #9
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Keep us posted. I'm always curious about these sorts of things.
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:31 PM   #10
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Mine looking like that was from Cam Seal and one time from Valve Cover crappy corner(that we all have to deal with on those heads), but you are claiming those are dry.
Also, how is oil pressure sensor looking like? greased or not? I know it's a bit far stretched, but easy to check at least.
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:37 PM   #11
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Since you already cleaned it. Now it's time to add the dye to the oil and see where it's coming from. Seems like a sneaky head gasket leak though.
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Old 01-04-2019, 10:23 PM   #12
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So...degreased last night, let it dry overnight since it's damn cold out. Just test drove, beat on it, oil to normal temp, high boost, high revs, 20 minutes of flogging, back in the driveway, bone dry. Everywhere. I'm going to let it sit overnight, check in the morning, see if anything else shows up.

This is annoying! Sure, I want it dry, but the fix sure as hell ain't degreasing...
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Old 01-05-2019, 02:17 PM   #13
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Many times I have fixed an oil leak and cleaned one up what looked to be real good.... Next half a dozen oil changes it still has oil mess after a period of time.

Wash it up with a can of brakeclean every time.

Took time... It was fine. Annoying with a client who likes to get under it with the flashlight and call.... "Still leaking"
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Old 01-05-2019, 05:09 PM   #14
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This was actually pooling oil on the water pump. I'd clean the area with brake clean after a wipe down, dry, then it would continue to pool. Pull out a can of gunk degreaser last night, did the same area plus a little more, still dry. I dunno, something is strange here...
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Old 01-05-2019, 06:51 PM   #15
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Rubber boost hose or vaccum hose from PCV system has hole in it somewhere near front of motor blowing oil on motor that way, seen it, fixed it. Only leaks when you really get on the boost.

Check the turbo oil feed line also.
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Old 01-05-2019, 11:42 PM   #16
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That would have lead to oil splattered somewhere else though.

So, 50 miles today, various load/rpm ranges, everything is still 100% dry.

How can an oil leak magically seal up? Before the degreasing I would have oil buildup after a 10 minute drive. Today, running all over town, nothing.
WTF!
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Old 01-06-2019, 11:12 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
That would have lead to oil splattered somewhere else though.

So, 50 miles today, various load/rpm ranges, everything is still 100% dry.

How can an oil leak magically seal up? Before the degreasing I would have oil buildup after a 10 minute drive. Today, running all over town, nothing.
WTF!
A number of times I have seen oil leaks dry up and go away (or at least get enough better to not be an issue) via fresh synthetic engine oil and changing it every 5000. A couple times in my cars. Stranger things have happened... And to nicer people!
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Old 01-07-2019, 03:00 PM   #18
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Your 120ft.lbs torque had be like me wondering if you had a crack, sounds like no news is good news though.
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Old 01-07-2019, 03:38 PM   #19
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120 ft pounds? I went 50 pounds and then the book says go 90 degrees and I went 180 thinking it was 90 with fiber gasket. I thought I had a cracked head, maybe I still do, but it was my water pump gasket leaking. You sure it's not that water pump round gasket between the pump and the head that isn't leaking? Sometimes they only leak when they get real hot or lots of boost or high rev's that make the water pressure way high, then it looks like oil but its mainly water mixed with some oil.

IT's the typical usual leak and yeah that is right where it pools just like you said top 'O' dee water pump.
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Old 01-07-2019, 03:59 PM   #20
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I think you guys missed the ARP studs bit. lol

It's possible the retorque fixed it I guess, just seems strange since none of them were really loose.

Got the truck in town for the next couple weeks so I'll get back to the wagon after that.
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Old 01-07-2019, 04:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
I think you guys missed the ARP studs bit. lol

It's possible the retorque fixed it I guess, just seems strange since none of them were really loose.

Got the truck in town for the next couple weeks so I'll get back to the wagon after that.
I only went 90ft.lbs on my 8v head with arp studs per yoshifab directions, but I had the arp lube. I planning a re-torque myself soon since I'm getting a teensy antifreeze smell at 25psi, perhaps I'll split the difference and go 105?
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Old 01-07-2019, 09:16 PM   #22
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I had the ARP lube on assembly, figure that has worked it's way out by now for sure so I went with the engine oil spec on retorquing. They also felt really damn dry, not lubed when I tightened them back up, so 120 should be fine.
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Old 01-07-2019, 10:15 PM   #23
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We'll see what happens is if you tighten the head bolts too tight, they break or the head cracks. The head cracks cause you tightened too much. You squished the head so much with your super beechen AARP head studs you cracked the head. Understand that?

I'm trying to crack this riddle me but you maybe cracked your head.
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Old 01-08-2019, 12:01 AM   #24
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Nah Simon, I'm not the village idiot, but thanks for the vote of confidence.

Initial torque was based on the specs from ARP using ARP moly lube. The retorque was based on specs for using engine oil. The reason for the retorque was to address the leak, not the leak showing up after the retorque.
https://yoshifab.com/store/webdocs/torquespecqrr.htm
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Old 01-08-2019, 04:46 PM   #25
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I said I cranked mine down way to much and I think I cracked my head. Just trying to crack this riddle. YOu'd better figure it out so we can get on with our lives. The suspense..
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