ITB 242 competitiveness

hello,

For

everyone with an ITB 242 (and also Dick Prince), how competitive are Volvo 240's (or 740's in his case)

against, say, a Spec Miata. I want to begin racing a dedicated track car, and I love Volvo, but I don't want to

build up a $10,000 242 that will not even see a Spec Miata's bumper.

So the question is: how fast are

they? Is an ITB 242 comparable to a Spec Miata? Are they fast 'for their time' - but not anymore? I want a

genuinely fast car, I'm willing to pay for it, and I'd lov for it to be a Volvo, but not if it's much slower

than commonly available race cars (like Spec Miatas).

I've been mulling over this for a while, and it's

been killing me. I've looked at race results for the ITB 242s, and I don't actually know how to quantify them

because I don't know how fast the driver is. I just want to get the most bang for my dollar, and be happy with

it.

thanks in advance...

-tal

taloyd said:

hello,

For everyone with an ITB 242 (and also Dick Prince), how competitive

are Volvo 240's (or 740's in his case) against, say, a Spec Miata. I want to begin racing a dedicated track

car, and I love Volvo, but I don't want to build up a $10,000 242 that will not even see a Spec Miata's bumper.



So the question is: how fast are they? Is an ITB 242 comparable to a Spec Miata? Are they fast 'for

their time' - but not anymore? I want a genuinely fast car, I'm willing to pay for it, and I'd lov for it to

be a Volvo, but not if it's much slower than commonly available race cars (like Spec Miatas).

I've been

mulling over this for a while, and it's been killing me. I've looked at race results for the ITB 242s, and I

don't actually know how to quantify them because I don't know how fast the driver is. I just want to get the

most bang for my dollar, and be happy with it.

thanks in

advance...

-tal

Click to expand...

Conact me offlist to discuss this in detail.

Is the 240

a contender in ITB? Yes, if built properly. Will it ever beat the 142E's? Probably not, but it can be the

best of the rest.

Spec Miata is just that, a class specifically for Miata's prepared to the same

specifications. Miatas are not classified in ITB, but in ITA.

A friend's '83 242 already has an ITB win

at Laguna Seca with SFR. A lot of development work has been performed since then.

David

The spec Miata series is very popular. From

what I've seen, they are among the fastest cars in their races. I think the top Miata's would run away from

any ITB Volvo, but that's not to say that the 142E can't beat some of the Miatas. I've only attended a couple

of races at Summit Point, so my view may be skewed, but the Miata's ARE fast. It's just a question of whether

you can make your Volvo fast, and right now there are more people building spec Miatas than ITB Volvos so you've

got some competition.

Focus on beating the ITB cars first. 142E, BMW 2002, VW GTI, and the rest.

This seems like an appropriate

thread to ask this in...

I have a recently purchased 202, which i plan to build into a heavily modified

purpose built track car, probably a 262T. I've looked briefly at SCCA rules and am quite confused about classes.

What class can I race in? Looks like IT is out, what about GT? Any hints, suggestions? Thanks for any help.

thedocdm said:

This seems like an appropriate thread to ask this in...

I have a recently

purchased 202, which i plan to build into a heavily modified purpose built track car, probably a 262T. I've

looked briefly at SCCA rules and am quite confused about classes. What class can I race in? Looks like IT is out,

what about GT? Any hints, suggestions? Thanks for any help.

Click to expand...

How is IT out? You can

race a 262T in ITE in MARRS. A friend races a BMW E30 M3 w/ M50 and Porsche/Brembo brakes. Ferrari Challenge

cars, old World Challenge cars, and pretty much any old sedan series cars can run in ITE.

You 2X2 is

McMaster's 242 from Va Beach, correct? The best chassis' for racing are actually the '81-'84 242's as they

have slightly thicker sheetmetal in some areas along with more spot welds. This is only a problem if you run a

class where seam welding is not allowed (i.e. ITS, ITA, ITB, ITC, ITD, and others).

Regardless of what

class you race in you will need to revamp the entire suspension to make your 2X2 handle well. You are better off

using the stock ride height than lowering, unless you redo the suspension geometry. Contact me offlist for more

information.

David

Forgot to log in on that last

post

David

David, are saying that lowering the car creates

problems in the front suspension concerning lowered roll center and increased bump steer?

Yea said:

David, are saying

that lowering the car creates problems in the front suspension concerning lowered roll center and increased bump

steer?

Click to expand...

Yes, some serious problems depending on how far you lower the car. But why

should I tell you? You'll just fab up a kit based on my R&D to profit MVP :shock: But I am willing to answer

your specific questions. Howabout this, build an MVP sponsored ITB 242 and I'll sell you a redesigned 200

series suspension kit for a nominal fee (race only kit, no punk questions from street kids please). Just

protecting my interests. I share this information freely with other racers who don't have the potential to make

a large sum of money from it.

David

go buy a book for $12 itll tell you everything

you need to know

David I must say your arrogance is quite innane

and is actually starting to offend me. Our shop cars are already driving around fully corrected and parts have

been ordered for production. I was just going to offer you a kit. I guess you will not need our expertise.

David, your statements just tell me you know

nothing about honor or us. You must be thinking about IPD. We would never steal other peoples ideas we are

accomplished and think for our selves. Furthermore we make NO profit from Volvo performance, we do it because it

is fun and we like to further the Mark. What you are learning now I have known and applied for 15 years.

Too offended to remember to log in

Yea said:

Too offended to

remember to log in

Click to expand...

Peter,

If tone could be conveyed in writing. I was being

sarcastic, lighten up! I am sorry my posting got so far under your skin.

I don't need any MVP parts as I

am getting my suspension pieces made to my specs. Thanks for the offer, or thinking of offering. Not that MVP

parts aren't good, on the contrary as I own quite a few MVP pieces and am very pleased with the quality and

function. I am going to try a few different things that may not be compatible with the MVP kit.

BTW if

you have known this stuff for 15 years then you should already know that the front roll center dives below ground

level and bumpsteer is pretty bad. If you knew, then why ask? And if you knew about these problems then you

have had 15 years to find a solution. I don't understand your comment.

As for honor, I would appreciate

it if you would recant that statement. I can't speak for iPd's past as I have never dealt with them in a

professional capacity.

Do I normally come across as arrogant on a regular basis?

Not to add to

this but I really don't need your expertise. There is a group of ITB 242 racers that share ideas and experiment

with different solutions. Most of my suspension design is taken from the factory solutions used by Volvo and BMW

along with others.

I am willing to discuss in detail, as I have in the past with you, some solutions to

the problems incurred by lowering Volvo's with MacPherson strut front suspensions.

David

When I asked about roll center and bump steer it

wasn't really a question. I was actually concurring with you due to your comment on lowering the car and showing

that I know why you said that. If I miss read you I am sorry but your posts read as arrogant (not only my

opinion).

When you make a statement like this "But why should I tell you? You'll

just fab up a kit based on my R&D to profit MVP" What am I supposed to think? If it was not meant that way you

should modify your tone or use a different emoticon to show you are kidding.

I am sure you are quite

capable and have your sources of information, but some R/D is very costly I just thought initially we might have

some solutions already fabbed for you. I was mistaken.

itb242 said:

You'll just fab

up a kit based on my R&D to profit MVP
(race only kit, no punk questions from street kids please).

Click to expand...

These two statements prompt me to

respond:



Two

things that truly annoy me.

People who will take information to their grave rather than letting it out.

Maybe someone will make a buck. Get over it.

And people who think they're all that and a bag of chips.

In 50 years no one will even remember your name.

Get over yourself, you're not that important.

so , which way does the rollcentre move under

cornering , up - down or side to side , and if so whats the remedy to making Mcpherson struts work , ie limiting

roll centre movement to make it make it more predictable .

Does the roll centre move in the same direction

as the rear i wonder , whats the difference between the panhard rod and a watts linkage .

Has anybody done

the corner weights and listed them , what did they do to remedy out of balance corner weights .

Anyway my

advice is free , since you lot are too tight to buy anything

Lowering a Macpherson strut vehicle with no

other modifications will lower the front roll center and create increased bumpsteer. The most annoying result

caused by the lowered rollcenter can be felt on the track when braking hard and attempting to turn-in to the

apex. The rear end of the car will go loose and become twitchy. It will basically induce oversteer under braking.

There are other basic geometry related effects, but the loose going in is from my experience the worst effect.