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Old 11-14-2013, 11:00 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by claymore View Post
My front engine produces 430bhp, I was just after something similar for the rear one, but I'll just stick to what I have and run two compound charged engines.
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:03 AM   #52
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Agreed, but then it would be like every other tuned 850, which is a bit difficult for attracting sponsorship, and cost wise my car has cost less than £2000 pounds to buy and build. my friend has paid nearly that amount for just a turbo and still has less power (at the moment)
That's a good explanation.

By rear engine, what do you mean? You have a motor out back too?

Every thought of electric drive for rears? use a two stroke to power up some capacitors. Would be the loudest thing on the planet..... haha.
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:07 AM   #53
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That's a good explanation.

By rear engine, what do you mean? You have a motor out back too?

Every thought of electric drive for rears? use a two stroke to power up some capacitors. Would be the loudest thing on the planet..... haha.
The car has just been taken off the road to have another engine put in the back ready for next year, trying to get an unstressed 800bhp awd setup
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:24 AM   #54
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Consider electric? Would be hybrid, then you could get sponsors that maybe wouldn't have considered it otherwise.

Talk to simey binker on here. He worked for an electric car company as an engineer, and knows a thing or two about electric drives.

Of course, this is just an idea. You may be set on another T5 or something, but electric torque driving the rears would be something to behold.
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:28 AM   #55
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I wouldn't know where to start with electric power, but I might just go and have a Google session
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:34 AM   #56
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Consider electric? Would be hybrid, then you could get sponsors that maybe wouldn't have considered it otherwise.

Talk to simey binker on here. He worked for an electric car company as an engineer, and knows a thing or two about electric drives.

Of course, this is just an idea. You may be set on another T5 or something, but electric torque driving the rears would be something to behold.
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I wouldn't know where to start with electric power, but I might just go and have a Google session
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:37 AM   #57
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The car has just been taken off the road to have another engine put in the back ready for next year, trying to get an unstressed 800bhp awd setup
Unstressed? Need to take the drive train into account then. Torque is the killer, not HP.
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:45 AM   #58
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That's why I'm going to use 2 engines with around 400bhp each, (I already have map the front engine to kill the torque)
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:55 AM   #59
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..
As an actual, functional system it will suck. As others have mentioned each turbo would only be getting 1/5th of the available exhaust energy, once every two engine revolutions, which causes several problems. Not to mention you've got a whole lot of added weight and efficiency losses by mutliplying turbo x5. A really good modern turbo is only about 55% efficient as an overall machine...that is, you get 55% of the energy you put into it back out again as usable work. 5 small turbos are not 5 times as efficient as one large turbo, not even close. You'll have more energy losses through the turbines, bearing systems, and compressors and the engine will therefore be working much harder to produce the same power output as it would with one properly sized turbo.

Let's say you wanted to make 500 bhp (at the flywheel) from your 2.3L 5-cyl, nice round number right? That's 100hp per cylinder or 217 hp/L. You'd need something like 32 psi manifold pressure, or about 3.3 pressure ratio on a compressor map, to do so at sea level, with the system optimized and working really well. This is treating the turbo match as five individual 0.46L single-cylinder engines. The corrected mass flow rate through each compressor would end up being about 8 lb/min at 6000rpm on this engine.

Look at the compressor maps of small turbos available for sale and you'll see that none of them will be anywhere near optimal running at 8 lb/min and 3.3 PR. Taking the Garrett GT1241 as an example, it's peak efficiency is available at 8 lb/min but only up to about 2.7 pressure ratio. At 3.3 PR you'd be overspeeding the crap out of this little guy (like 300,000 rpm vs. 220,000 rpm speed limit). Overspeeding not only puts a tremendous strain on the turbo mechanically but makes it a really poor air compressor. Compressor efficiency will be terrible, intake air temps will be very high, and as a result the turbine will be working much harder, creating more backpressure and killing flow through the head (VE). As most people who have played around with turbos know, "turning up the boost" will only net you more power up to a point of diminishing returns with a particular turbo.

Taking that GT1241 down to a reasonable pressure ratio like 2.7:1 means that you'd be making about 24 psi intake manifold pressure. With a properly sized single turbo, that's about 430hp at the flywheel, and the compressor would be flowing about 36 lb/min. There are plenty of small-ish turbos that could do this all day long, without the need for the added complexity & weight of four more turbos, wastegates, charge plumbing, etc. The other advantage of a small single turbo would be that you could turn up the wick to 32 psi / 3.3 PR and make 500 flywheel hp, no problema. A GT3071R for example would be perfect for 500hp on this 2.3L.

It's true that a single small turbo will have less rotational intertia and need much less exhaust energy to spool up than a large one, and if you had a 460cc single (dirt bike for example) I'd say sure, go ahead and use a GT12 or equivalent and make something like 85hp. But multiplying that system by 5 just doesn't make much sense when the net effects will just be:

-lower peak hp potential
-increased backpressure
-increased charge air temps
-increased fuel consumption
-added weight
-5x the amount of crap to fail

vs. a properly sized single turbo system at the same power level.
what i was about to say.

but do it for the giggles
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:57 AM   #60
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With all that money spent, might as well do a custom V8 B8444s with twins if you want to stay Volvo. Or an LSX single turbo, or huge blower. Both can make 800 without the headache, and would cost less. You're looking at 15k just for all the custom mounting and reinforcement alone. Then the headache starts of keeping both engines in tandem and synchronized. Why you have a map to kill torque is beyond me. I love torque. Makes me sh!t my pants.
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Old 11-14-2013, 12:02 PM   #61
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With all that money spent, might as well do a custom V8 B8444s with twins if you want to stay Volvo. Or an LSX single turbo, or huge blower. Both can make 800 without the headache, and would cost less. You're looking at 15k just for all the custom mounting and reinforcement alone. Then the headache starts of keeping both engines in tandem and synchronized. Why you have a map to kill torque is beyond me. I love torque. Makes me sh!t my pants.
What money spent?
You might be looking at 15k, I think I can get it done for about £700 which includes the donor car and Another ECU
I have a map to kill torque so stop me blowing up my weak m59 gearbox.
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Old 11-14-2013, 12:27 PM   #62
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You want to put two engines in your car @ 400hp each for £700? What are you going to do for a 2nd tranny? Custom axles in the rear? How are you going to mount the engine with out reinforcing the rear and making mounts? I just need you to explain to me how this is done for £700.
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Old 11-14-2013, 12:32 PM   #63
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Oh my.
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Old 11-14-2013, 12:34 PM   #64
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You want to put two engines in your car @ 400hp each for £700? What are you going to do for a 2nd tranny? Custom axles in the rear? How are you going to mount the engine with out reinforcing the rear and making mounts? I just need you to explain to me how this is done for £700.
Already done it once on the Volvaxo:

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showth...hlight=volvaxo


Last edited by claymore; 11-14-2013 at 12:47 PM..
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Old 11-14-2013, 12:40 PM   #65
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See all that custom work? It cost money whether labor or supplies. That's not £700 worth of work.
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Old 11-14-2013, 12:43 PM   #66
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I do all my own work, I know what it will cost.
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Old 11-14-2013, 12:47 PM   #67
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Okie dokie then.
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Old 11-14-2013, 01:05 PM   #68
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I'm trying to figure out how all of this is going to be controlled/work.
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Old 11-14-2013, 01:08 PM   #69
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Maybe it'll just kinda happen, like that twin-engined, methanol-fueled, automatic-transmission Tiburon from SCC Magazine's Ultimate Street Car Challenge a few years back.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlAyaCKVBTQ‎
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Old 11-14-2013, 01:10 PM   #70
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I'm trying to figure out how all of this is going to be controlled/work.
Nothing to complicated, two throttle cables, larger clutch master cylinder to feed both slave cylinders, and we fwd Volvo owners are very lucky to have cable operated gear linkage.
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Old 11-14-2013, 01:11 PM   #71
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Turbo potatoes!!111
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Old 11-14-2013, 02:50 PM   #72
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I'm trying to figure out how all of this is going to be controlled/work.
It's like you've never seen the Durocco, what a LOSER!
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Old 11-14-2013, 07:55 PM   #73
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Thisll be the second 850 T10! Good stuff claymore.
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Old 11-14-2013, 09:30 PM   #74
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Thisll be the second 850 T10! Good stuff claymore.
Do tell? And by tell I mean show pics?
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Old 11-14-2013, 09:36 PM   #75
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TB, full of wankers who hate FWD ingenuity since 1993.
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