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Old 01-06-2019, 01:26 AM   #51
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Looking good - not sure about the flair idea...can you find something that would fit with the style of the car a little better. How about a Dodge Omni fender or early A1 VW?
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Old 01-06-2019, 08:25 PM   #52
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Looking good - not sure about the flair idea...can you find something that would fit with the style of the car a little better. How about a Dodge Omni fender or early A1 VW?
The flairs have to be about 4 inches straight out from the fenders, I don't know if I can get the little fender flares such as those to look anything but awkward. I'm planning on making them from scratch and using foam to shave out the plug for a composite finished piece. I have no idea how any of it will look, but I've seen guys do large versions of the flairs you've suggested and they look swollen and a bit too much for me.
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Old 01-06-2019, 11:30 PM   #53
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The flairs have to be about 4 inches straight out from the fenders, I don't know if I can get the little fender flares such as those to look anything but awkward. I'm planning on making them from scratch and using foam to shave out the plug for a composite finished piece. I have no idea how any of it will look, but I've seen guys do large versions of the flairs you've suggested and they look swollen and a bit too much for me.
Why not shrink the track a few inches and go that way?
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Old 01-08-2019, 12:40 PM   #54
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Why not shrink the track a few inches and go that way?
Ha! You make that sound easy If I were fabricating all of the mounts for the control arms, I would. I'm simply swapping subframes and the track width is about 7 inches wider from tire center to tire center when going from Volvo to Nissan. I'm going slightly meatier than the stock Amazon with the tires, so the total on each side to get good coverage and leave myself some room to go even bigger (in the rear especially) would round up to 5 or so inches on each side.

Personally, I like the idea of huge flares and having the character of a classic. The Super Amazon has the most utilitarian flares I've seen and those too were more like Semi-truck mudflaps curved around the whole tire and they still look wonderful because they don't have too much an angle on the top. If you look at how high the flare would have to go to have an angle like the VW flares you mentioned, I wouldn't have much fender left. In the end, I wonder if the only way to tell is to scratch out some foam mockups and maybe then I can do one side one way and the other side another to see which physically looks better, eh?

About that. I am going to have to find a shop around here to make some frame rails for me. What I failed to measure on either of the Nissans was the total height of the subframe from the ground when mounted and under load. It technically is variable with ride height, but I'm aiming for stock "ride height" so the geometry works its best, then I thought I could physically mount the subframe slightly higher than stock and that would result in a "lowered" or lower look of how the tire tucks in the fenders, while not being slammed too much in reference to the geometry. What are your thoughts on this? I'm not sure what to take into account when I go to install the subframe, in the front particularly, since I'll be ordering frame rails to suit the need. I don't know maths enough to figure out how heavy it will be and how much of that weight will compress what amount of coilover, etc. Hope I laid it out in a way that makes sense. It's something I should start thinking about.
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Old 01-08-2019, 08:32 PM   #55
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Foam mock ups is a very good idea. Just get some expanding foam and packing tape and a little cardboard and an electric carving knife and you're home free. At least you can look at it and see how it looks to you - it is your car after all.

Most trailer fabrication shops will do up frame rails for you - price usually isn't all that bad. I've made simple U-channel frames from bent 10 ga for pretty reasonable money. I had Art Morrison bend my rails - that's a little more spendy but sure was nice. Lowering the car into the subframe is the best solution for maintaining the geometry. Just set the car on the subframe and decide on the "stance" and then work out the distances from there. I won't tell you this is easy. It isn't.

Depending on your level of comfort with welding, you can also just cut and weld a frame. It's done this way a lot in some stock car classes. Work with 3" X 2" by 120 wall tube (cold rolled if you can get it) and then either graft the existing inner fenders on to that or do something different up front (the inner fenders make for a very tight engine bay). If you do that - just remember that the stock frames are prone to cracking at about the firewall intersection. This is due to the rather optimistic approach that Volvo took to engineering that front end. Fine for 100 hp and a gravel road, but not really up to modern standards. Look at the way more modern cars (even a 240) have treated the upper fender support beam. Quite different. That's why this is all coming off my car...but I'm a bit nuts that way.
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Old 01-09-2019, 07:10 PM   #56
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Thanks for the advice. I saw the B is for Build guy do his own frame rails and thought it was downright scary! I know it's safe, especially the way he doubled it up, but I assume that's the way JEGS and other places intend for it to happen when they sell their frame kits. It's definitely on the table for me. I'm very scared of that process, but I know it's an important one.

I may have mentioned this, but I am planning on going full tube in the front and eliminating the inner fenders. I am getting better and better with welding every day. Keep giving myself more things to practice. One interesting thing is that the better I get with TIG, the worse I get with MIG, but I suspect that's just lack of doing MIG in quite a while haha.

A quick update as well. I was having a hell of a time with the poly bushing kit I received. I knew they'd be hard, but this was just not happening. I couldn't find a single method I liked for how to get them in so I devised my own and made a video about it because I thought it might help some other shmuck like me:



I basically took some of the bushings to home depot, got some pipe nipples to use as a sleeve and driver and they went in like butter.

Now, on to the next impossible task. My rear half-shafts from the 300zx are so stuck in the knuckles that I'm convinced I'm missing something in the disassembly. I'll post pics later, but for now suffice it to say between the bushings and these shafts taking as long as they are, I'd say it's caused about a month of head-scratching and delay. Not fun, but hey, if it was easy, everyone would do it!
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:44 PM   #57
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That frame on B is for Build is scary. Cheap steel, no weld prep...I wouldn't drive that thing in anger - it will fight back. I'd rather not watch that guy build another car like this...millions would disagree.

Can you get the half shafts in your press? They'll come out - service technicians do it with BFH and no regrets.
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Old 01-10-2019, 12:34 AM   #58
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That frame on B is for Build is scary. Cheap steel, no weld prep...I wouldn't drive that thing in anger - it will fight back. I'd rather not watch that guy build another car like this...millions would disagree.

Can you get the half shafts in your press? They'll come out - service technicians do it with BFH and no regrets.
Glad to know I wasn't wrong in my initial fear of the B is for Build frame. So, is the design okay, but the steel and prep not in your view? I kinda just thought frame rails had to be bent, so when I saw them cut and welded like that it rubbed me wrong, but steel cut and welded at an angle probably has incredible strength still.

I will try to fit it in the press. I'm thinking axle nut facing the jack press with the knuckle below might be the number. I have it soaking in liquid wrench at the moment, so thanks for the idea!
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Old 01-10-2019, 03:57 PM   #59
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Try acetone and ATF for a cheaper alternative to other penetrating oils...and you can create a dunk take of the mix for $20.

Ya, weld prep on about 90% of stuff I see on YouTube is frightening. When I did my rails, I ran two passes with TIG - a root pass where I'm key holing the entire run and then a cap pass. Mill scale cleaned off and weld prep done with care. I added gusset plates to the inside of the joint and button welded (again - two pass with the TIG) and I know what I'm doing. Frames are cut and welded together all the time, but the skill of the welder does matter. So no down hill MIG or single pass TIG with no prep. Buddy doesn't even clean his stuff off. You can also have curved sections waterjet cut and then cap them top and bottom if you don't want to have a weld mid spar.

For a 122 - bring your main rails back at least to the A-Pillar intersection or better yet, take them all the way back to the cross member under the front seats.

Like this.





Which ends up like this...

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Old 01-12-2019, 11:45 AM   #60
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Nice, I was gonna ask for that drawing. I thought I remembered seeing it on your thread.

As far as the axles, here's what I came up with:





The bulky part won't fit through the bridge on the bottom of my press and I didn't want to cut it up or go buy suitable strength material to make a new one. I thought this would work, and it "does," I just chickened out. I started to press it and very slightly bent one of the jackstands because it was incorrectly set on there. I put it back on there properly and gave it the beans and after several intense sounding cracks...still nothing happened. I might have to get a torch and an air hammer next to jostle it. I think I have to muster up the courage to just "send it" and see what happens. Can't use that Jackstand for anything anymore any way. I can't shake the fear of something catastrophically failing and flying into my body, but I'll try to get over it and try it again.

You can see how awkward it is as an assembly. I can't fit either a wrench or socket in to remove the ball joint to remove that lower control arm without removing the axle. Same with the hub. There's usually a "cutout" on axles to allow for a socket to reach, but in this case, it's perfectly round all the way...'round. I do have a new ball joint, so I could slice this one, but that still won't help remove the axle. As far as I can tell from searching and just basic knowledge, there's nothing holding the axle on, but I probably gave it 6 tons of force and it didn't budge or even make a sound. Just makes me think there's something I forgot to loosen or I just need to put more grit into the press to give it the old college try.
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Old 01-12-2019, 09:58 PM   #61
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If you don't feel comfortable, don't do it. It would be better to pay someone. Better than ending up maimed or worse. Just my 2¢.
That said, I have enjoyed following along!
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Old 01-13-2019, 08:45 PM   #62
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Craig (canuck) is a font of useful info, he knows his shiit! If your thinking of doing your own subframe you should check out this guys stuff:

https://www.welderseries.com/Frame-Curves-p49939496
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Old 01-14-2019, 12:48 AM   #63
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If you don't feel comfortable, don't do it. It would be better to pay someone. Better than ending up maimed or worse. Just my 2¢.
That said, I have enjoyed following along!
Very much how I'm thinking at the moment. I honestly don't really think anything could go wrong, catastrophically, I'm actually a bit more worried about damaging a part. I think I might pinch that jackstand, but that most likely wouldn't be an explosion. More like melting butter.
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Old 01-14-2019, 12:51 AM   #64
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Craig (canuck) is a font of useful info, he knows his shiit! If your thinking of doing your own subframe you should check out this guys stuff:

https://www.welderseries.com/Frame-Curves-p49939496
Agreed on the awesomeness of Craig! Glad he chose a Volvo so that I found his amazing thread! Also, those frame curves are incredible! Super glad I know they exist. Seems like it'd be cheaper and less stressful to just get some bent though. I just need simple frame rails that don't look anything like the 122 frame rails lol
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:18 PM   #65
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Just for reference, the parts I had bent by Art Morrison were $500 shipped (only to the border - not the rest of the way to my garage). Those welder series parts are bunch cheaper. I've used their stuff a lot. One thing to consider is that the bends are all made from 3/16" not 1/8 (or 120 wall) - so it matches the outside dimension of the tube (assuming your using the standard 3 X 2 X 120 wall - there is really no reason a 122 would need a 3/16" wall tubular frame) so you can't internally reinforce the weld area. You then have an externally reinforce the joint. You could make a swagged joining plate. Anyway, it adds a layer of complexity that you may not want to consider.
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Old 01-14-2019, 07:15 PM   #66
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Just for reference, the parts I had bent by Art Morrison were $500 shipped (only to the border - not the rest of the way to my garage). Those welder series parts are bunch cheaper. I've used their stuff a lot. One thing to consider is that the bends are all made from 3/16" not 1/8 (or 120 wall) - so it matches the outside dimension of the tube (assuming your using the standard 3 X 2 X 120 wall - there is really no reason a 122 would need a 3/16" wall tubular frame) so you can't internally reinforce the weld area. You then have an externally reinforce the joint. You could make a swagged joining plate. Anyway, it adds a layer of complexity that you may not want to consider.
Well, I might have been too quick to call it expensive! Ha! I did think about it again, and what I'm most worried about is if I buy two of these joints, in 2x3 trim, I feel totally confident welding that up and adding a gusset similar to the one you have used, but using it on the outside. Or, I do know a guy with a CNC mill. I'm sure I could step the 1/8" out of one side of a 3/16" gusset and use it internally as a tab exactly the way you have.

My thoughts then are what would it result in? I get two of these, I cut them in half on the radius and flip them so I end up with a parallel angle for the existing frame rail, and my new frame rail. How would I control the height of the new frame rails? I'd have to add another small section in between these? As in, I use half of the welder series "elbow" to angle up, the other half of it to return the angle to parallel. If that happens to not be as high as I want, I'd have to add material, which would be four entire weld arounds per side or something. That's what seems off to me, or what I'd need to figure out.
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Old 01-14-2019, 07:32 PM   #67
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Here's a pic from their website.



Seems that's the rub. I suppose that's no big deal...just a lot of opportunity for warpage that will be difficult to arrest.

And here's a quick sketchup of what it would get me if I just flipped it.



Exactly 5 1/2" of height. That's not that bad actually. I'll have to see if I can work with that. I'm putting the cart before the horse again though. This is a six-month-from-now-if-I'm-lucky problem lol.
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:27 AM   #68
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Just a thought - when you know your frame needs, just get the bend you need water jet cut from 1/8" plate. You could draw it up and send it out and include the little tabs to located the top and bottom parts. The Welder's Series stuff is laser cut and then the closing panels are rolled. The result is very nice, but could be easily achieved. Fewer weld joints is a good idea.
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:16 PM   #69
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Just a thought - when you know your frame needs, just get the bend you need water jet cut from 1/8" plate. You could draw it up and send it out and include the little tabs to located the top and bottom parts. The Welder's Series stuff is laser cut and then the closing panels are rolled. The result is very nice, but could be easily achieved. Fewer weld joints is a good idea.
I'm with you on the water jet cutting for the sides. I don't know about the closing panels though. I'd have a hard time (impossible) doing that with my tools. I don't have a roller.
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:49 PM   #70
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I'm with you on the water jet cutting for the sides. I don't know about the closing panels though. I'd have a hard time (impossible) doing that with my tools. I don't have a roller.
Set up the front edges so they are square and an about 1.5" apart to the outside...then tack the front top plate and warm up the plate with a torch. Then just bend to fit. That's how I'd do it. Once you've got one done, tack the other end, flip it over and plate the other side. Then when cool, cut the tacks and weld it up. If it's all 1/8" - it'll move pretty easily.

Where are you going to make the join into the original frame? I think I may still have my front frame bend drawings if you need the dimensions.
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Old 01-16-2019, 12:09 PM   #71
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Set up the front edges so they are square and an about 1.5" apart to the outside...then tack the front top plate and warm up the plate with a torch. Then just bend to fit. That's how I'd do it. Once you've got one done, tack the other end, flip it over and plate the other side. Then when cool, cut the tacks and weld it up. If it's all 1/8" - it'll move pretty easily.

Where are you going to make the join into the original frame? I think I may still have my front frame bend drawings if you need the dimensions.
That makes more sense. I will definitely plan on this for sure. It seems like it would have the least amount of welds and I could even make it like an "S" with extended tails so the joint is further from the very apex of the curve if I went this route. I don't know if that would be "stronger" or just stronger. Either way it's a good strategy! Thanks for the help!

Also, I don't remember reading about this, but it seems like your Art Morrison rails were cut and welded to some channel stock for under the car. Was that just for better registration to the body?

In answer to your question, I'd love to bring it as far back as possible. It's so comparatively cheap to just extend it under the seats or thereabouts, that I've just assumed that was the way to go.

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Old 01-16-2019, 04:25 PM   #72
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I had rails made to extend all the way back to the cross member behind the front seat. I gave the dimensions to the local metal bashers (they make truck boxes etc and have a few 100T press brakes) and they knocked out the parts for what seemed like a good price. They've done other work for me and it's always easier and cheaper than working it out on my own. I looked and can't find the drawings - it was about 3 computers ago...sorry.

The main reason I went with the mandrel bent rails from AME instead of doing as I'm suggesting is that I don't have access to a local water-jet company. All that work has to be done in Calgary for me which is a PITA as I have to get friends to pick it up and it's phone calls and travel (about 2 hours away) etc. I could plasma it myself, but I'm unsure if that would work out to my retentive needs. So it was far easier to just call up the pros and have them done. It was fast and painless - those guys are good.

The stock frame is wider than 2" so I designed a frame leg that would extend from the new front rectangular section and have the same look (it's tapered from 3" at the front to 2" or so at the rear in height as per the original). I also made the out riggers. People always try to use that part of the frame as a jack point and quickly find out that it's only 18 ga and bends/deforms easily. Mine were so abused that it was easier to future proof the problem and make them from 10 ga. The rear chassis leg is also 10 ga - I'm planning on having 400 ish WHP in this thing, and I drive hard (track - not in my head) so I know what happens. Strength and a bit of weight down low hurts nothing.
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