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Turbo Talk! Critique choices for a 450bhp redblock

Do you have compressor maps for all the turbos you listed?

I do but I'm not gonna go through the trouble to post them.

Get the 3576 with a 1.0 ish divided t4 housing and an adapter. It will be more responsive than you think.

Don't tempt me with a good time.. I've definitely considered it. Also don't even have to do the adapter you can get the Ni housings in t3. It does feel like overkill for overkill's sake :e-shrug:

that's a bad larry
https://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/mercha...=GRT-TBO-828&Category_Code=GG2-3576-T3DIVIDED

or more sensibly
https://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/mercha...=GRT-TBO-780&Category_Code=GG2-3071-T3DIVIDED
 
Fwiw i just got the mamba gtx3071r. Havent ran it yet due to fitment issues with the rsi header. Its a 16v setup with the usual upgrades. Home time is limited with me. So it will be a while before i can supply any details
 
I didn't realize the 3576 maxed out at ~67 lb/min. That's just a tiny bit more than the 7670. Seems like that's the wrong map. But if it's right that's going to be a great choice if you want to stick with a T3 housing.

here are the maps from Garrett

Comp-Map-GTX3576R.jpg


Turbine-Flow-GT35.jpg


the 3076r on the blue car does well IMO. the efr stuff is said to be pretty nice though. Haven't played with any of that yet.

I know I've see you say the car did ~320whp, what boost level was that? Any chance you have a MAP curve?

So far this thread has failed to lure Duder out of hiding ;-)
 
I probably have several in datalogs. It's a really fun car to drive, it made that number at around 23psi without leaning on it too hard
 
Haha, hey guys. Have had my head buried in work for the past few days. Le Mans Hypercars need turbos too, just as much as Redblocks do!

There are two generations of GTX3576R - maybe that's where some confusion is being generated. I personally am a fan of the Gen1 because peak compressor efficiency was higher. Gen2 got a higher flowing compressor stage (wider map) with slightly lower peak efficiency. Turbine specs are the same between the two.

For 400whp (so ~475 bhp at the flywheel) and 2.3L, the GTX3071R is the biggest I'm currently going to recommend for you Stiggy. The engine just won't flow enough to make a 76mm compressor worth the tradeoffs of operating regime and surge margin (IMO). Even at 7000rpm, 14.7psi ambient, 95% volumetric efficiency, 0.5 lb/hp-hr BSFC, and 11.5 AFR, your corrected airflow looks like about 43 or 44 lb/min assuming 30psi manifold boost pressure. At 35psi the corrected flow rate goes up to 50 lb/min.

The VE, BSFC, and AFR values are complete guesses. If those are anywhere close to correct, and you see yourself running about 30 - 35psi, then the GTX3071R Gen1 would be just about right, or a GTX3067R (also Gen1 - there is no Gen2) would also be great and would spool faster in full load and transients.

If you could only get your hands on a Gen2 then the GTX3576R might actually be better. The shape of the Gen2 compressor map is such that a 3071 becomes less than ideal at the same operating point - it's more tailored to a larger engine requiring less boost to make the same power, like a typical V6.

For smaller (2.0L - 2.5L) more highly boosted 4-cylinders the Gen1 GTX is just better suited if you stay on the small side. If you can only get Gen2, then go one size larger to get the same steady state efficiency. That will also give you more headroom up top for higher flow, but now you're talking about increasing displacement and keeping the same turbo.
 
you just stunned me into silence. No it actually threw me for a bit of a loop and I spent most of the night yesterday looking at overlaid compressor maps.

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...pressor-map-and-tell-me-what-you-think/page22

Nice to see the overlaid maps, and that guy does make logical conclusions about each comparison - except - he's saying "as you can see, turbo x will spool up ~500rpm sooner than turbo y..." a lot. That cannot simply be determined by looking at a compressor map alone. The compressor map gives you the lay of the land, but doesn't tell you where you'll be operating before full boost is reached. For that you need lots of data about the turbine, engine, and the rest of the system. Maybe he's making the "spoolup" estimates from experience, in which case...ok.

Keep in mind too there are different ways of measuring response. At full throttle there will be a threshold rpm at which you'll reach full boost. Unless your turbo is grossly oversized, this point is pretty much determined by steady-state performance of the turbine and compressor. Power balance between the two essentially. Compressor needs X kW to operate at the target boost/airflow, turbine is making Y kW right now at a particular engine speed....is Y > X? If so, you can run at target boost and the wastegate will be open. Is Y = X? If so, you will just barely be able to reach the target, wastegate will be closed. Is Y < X? If so, turbine isn't making enough power yet, wastegate is closed, and boost is below the target.

Then there's transient response - how quickly will the engine come up to full torque when you do a load step from part-load to full-load, for example cruising down the road and then suddenly stomping on the throttle to pass someone without downshifting, or maybe mid-corner throttle adjustments on a road course. In this case the response of the turbo is determined by compressor & turbine efficiency, bearing losses, and inertia of the rotor.

If we would have been at dinner together. It would have been the time to stop talking and dig in to the food. lol.

:lol:
 
looking pretty hard at the 3576 and the 7670.

I also have read a bit on the S200sxe lineup.. they are a grand cheaper than an efr..
 
The s257 sx-e looks badass. That's the turbo I want for roughly the same power. Sorry Duder, I just can't afford your hardware ;-)
 
looking pretty hard at the 3576 and the 7670.

I also have read a bit on the S200sxe lineup.. they are a grand cheaper than an efr..

I still have a lot to sort out with mine, but it seems like it'll be really nice. Spools quick, pulls hard, is quite cheap, and doesn't even need water lines.
 
It actually appears to be very similar performance-wise to a Gen1 GTX3576R, just from a cursory look at the compressor map and turbine sizing.
 
Since your car run and drive, why not spend a little money to get the car on dyno and datalog it.

Use the data (HP and boost number) to plot on the compressor map, then choose a turbo?

You'll be surprise at what you find, I know I did.

Vtrim.jpg
 
Since your car run and drive, why not spend a little money to get the car on dyno and datalog it.

Use the data (HP and boost number) to plot on the compressor map, then choose a turbo?

Solid advice. What are the engine specs for the measured data plotted on that map?

By specs I mean displacement, head work, cam, fuel type, air/fuel ratio, intercooler type, charge plumbing diameter, exhaust diameter, and so on.
 
displacement

Dodge 2.2L, SOHC

head work

Biggest valves that fits the head, with lots of port work. Big intake manifold
pic049.jpg



Stock 88 2.2 TBI roller camshaft.

fuel type, air/fuel ratio

E52, between 12-10
353whplog.jpg

353whp.jpg


intercooler type

Treadstone TR82
IMG_20170107_105225090.jpg


charge plumbing diameter

2.5 inch pre intercooler, 63mm aft intercooler.

exhaust diameter

3 inch pipes all the way back. No cat.

Turbo is T04B V-trim compressor wheel, stag eIII turbine wheel, .63 a/r turbine housing, ATP ultimate wastegate
IMG_20170408_130219421.jpg


IMG_20170408_130235055_BURST000_COVER_TOP.jpg
 
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