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5 cylinder 240

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FlatWagon83

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Joined
Nov 24, 2002
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
I am trying to gather information on how to put a later five cylinder engine, likely from an 850, into an early 240. The one thing holding me back is the transmission. The whole idea would be to keep the thing rear wheel drive, but it's impossible to find something in the US to do that with. I have heard many people talk about using a Volvo transmission called the M90 which was apparently only available in Europe on some models that I don't know the details of. However, I still don't even know for sure if that will bolt up to a five cylinder. If so, I think a group buy needs to be arranged as I doubt I'm the only one interested. If not, what does fit? I have this great dream of a 242 with horspower greater than an 850R and I want to get the project moving.

Any thoughts? Aside from me being nuts.
 
It's not impossible to get horsepower greater than a 850R out of your redblock that's already in your car. If your going to go through the trouble to do that engine swap, there are alot of little costs that will add up in the end to be ALOT. With that money that you are going to put into that engine swap, you could be well on your way into having a monster in your 240 with it's current engine. Just a thought...
 
Ahh, you've been having my dreams again! I've been thinking about this since the T5 first hit the streets but the one thing thats really held me back from moving towards this now that you can get an 850 clip pretty cheaply is the lack of a manual trans for RWD.
AFAIK the 960 automatic will work is you want to go that route

Good luck and let us know what you find!

Dan
 
Being one of the few representatives of the FWD community around here this is what most of us have decided on the matter...

Putting a R engine in a 240, while seemingly a novel idea, in the end turns out to be more of a fuss and more expensive than it is worth. First off getting the engine itself and all the hardware is going to cost at least 3000$ and that's from a junkyard. Then there is the tranny issue which in theory is it possible to use the M46/47 or AW71 but with the kind of power a R motor makes you'll tear those tranny's to pieces. If you got an M90 from europe you could use that, bolt the engine in backwards and you'd be in business. But again the M90 was europe only and importing one is going to cost like 1500$. All the numbers are without labor.

So there you've got 4500$ just getting an engine and tranny, now you'd spend another 2000$ at least getting all that put into a 240. Grand total of somewhere around 7000$.

Now with 7000$ anyone on here will tell you, a Red block with that kind of money put into it would be over 500hp easily. Any with the red block you wouldn't have to worry about the weak con rods that are in the 5 cylinder motors that will break at 320hp. Hope this helps some and if you do decide to get an R motor keep me, and the rest of us, informed. I know there is a guy down in Florida I have talked to that is putting a T6 motor in his 960 ::drool::
 
My main thinking was, although putting the amount of money that I would be into an R engine could bring a standard 230 or B21 up to 500 horsepower, it would never be reliable in the way I want it to be. In addition, it would get horrible mileage, probably idle poorly, and really be more of a track car than I want. Granted, building this sort of thing is completely impracticle. However, the engine itself is incredibly reliable with minimal work, with great mileage to boot. I have been kicking this idea around for a while and have decided that it is time to either forget it, or find out if it is even possible. I know it is possible, now I just need to get my ass in gear.
The engine itself would be pricey, and I don't know much about front wheel drive Volvos, let alone their engines. However, I would imagine that with little work, one could bring a standard turbo 5 cylinder up to the specs of an R engine, and probably buy the components much cheaper. I have a strange suspicion that it is really the same engine with wastegate modifications fuel management changes, anyone know the real difference? Where the horsepower really came from?
As far as the transmission is concerned, I have also been considering just making an adapter plate to fit something like a six speed out of a later Toyota, perhaps a Supra or something. Might be expensive, but might be cheaper than importing an M90. I have also considered the automatic, which might end up being a temporary solution.
 
Marvelous3 said:
First off getting the engine itself and all the hardware is going to cost at least 3000$ and that's from a junkyard.

An 850R motor with about 65K miles, all accessories, manifolds, etc. sold on ebay for about $850. With ECU, it would have been a little over $1k. That's far from $3k. The hard part is finding one.


[quote:34c55d346a]Then there is the tranny issue which in theory is it possible to use the M46/47 or AW71 but with the kind of power a R motor makes you'll tear those tranny's to pieces.[/quote:34c55d346a]

Spending the money to adapt any of those transmissions would be a bad idea. For the same amount of effort you could adapt a domestic 5spd that will actually hold up to 300+hp.


[quote:34c55d346a]But again the M90 was europe only and importing one is going to cost like 1500$.[/quote:34c55d346a]

Prices vary, but that may be on the high side.


[quote:34c55d346a]Grand total of somewhere around 7000$.[/quote:34c55d346a]

It could be done for around half that much.


[quote:34c55d346a]Now with 7000$ anyone on here will tell you, a Red block with that kind of money put into it would be over 500hp easily.[/quote:34c55d346a]

This is a recipe I'd like to see.

A B5234T powered 240 is something you have to really want because it will cost more than some of the other options. For max power it's not the best option economically, but it sure is cool when it's done!
 
Is it cost effective? Is it the fastest option? Is it going to be simple? We all know the answer is no.

But,......

The WOW factor gauge would be pegged! I have thought about this for years. Sometimes it's not about being the most economical or the fastest,
somtimes it's simply what you want.
 
850$!? with a bent rod maybe. And even if you did score one off ebay for 850$ you'd more than likely have to ship the thing and that is not a cheap thing to do.

And there is no way a R motor at 500hp is more reliable and/or would get better milage than a red block. It is possible to make a red block perfectly reliable at a reasonable boosted hp...the side effects of boosting any engine is going to be lower gas milage. If ya want huge amounts of power and still want to have it not rev to 7000RPM then get a crate motor.
 
Marvelous3 said:
850$!? with a bent rod maybe. And even if you did score one off ebay for 850$ you'd more than likely have to ship the thing and that is not a cheap thing to do.

:roll:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1860554653

Even with shipping to the west coast, it would be less than $1500 for the engine...


[quote:0b031ecad5]And there is no way a R motor at 500hp is more reliable and/or would get better milage than a red block. It is possible to make a red block perfectly reliable at a reasonable boosted hp...the side effects of boosting any engine is going to be lower gas milage. If ya want huge amounts of power and still want to have it not rev to 7000RPM then get a crate motor.[/quote:0b031ecad5]

OK. Read the original post. He says "I have this great dream of a 242 with horspower greater than an 850R." That amounts to about 250hp, so what difference does it make about which engine would be better at 500hp?

I think it makes more sense to point out that 250hp+ can be had from a 4cyl. for less money than a 5cyl., and not that you can have massive amounts of power for the same amount of money.
 
Youse guys crack me up!! Want silly power? Make your redblock into something dumb with 350-400 horses that should still be drivable, modify a bellhousing to accept any number of Americanski trannies (I use a Jerico in mine) and get ready to start blowing up rear ends. Or do an Eagle Premier 3.0 V-6 up with a turbo and duplicate my toy. Even better; buy my toy. $30K and it could be yours. Please don't ask what I have into it over the years. If I had put that dough into a bottle (a BIG bottle) I could likely live on Lake Washington Waterfront. The Kewl five cylinder thing would be a cool Gee whiz kind of deal, but I don't see any real reason to go to the effort unless you are able to get one real cheap, and are real friendly with a REAL GOOD welder and machinist. I am in the BIZ, am on real good terms with a real good welder, machinist, fabricator, and would hesitate about embarking on your proposed journey. Thoughts? JohnLane
 
Okay so maybe he doesn't want 500hp but I was going on an assumption of big power and pulled that number out of my head. Congrats you got a R motor for 850 dollars, but if you got one you'd have to custom fab all kinds of stuff to make it fit into a 240. Still way more expensive than a red block.

He was trying to gather info on putting a 5 cylinder into a 240, I gave some info (all be it using some overestimated numbers) on what the costs would be. Like John said, unless you're in with people it's going to be expensive with a lot of custom stuff. I'm done with this thread so if Flatwagon decides to go with it then more power to him...
 
Wow, to get this thread sort of friendly again:

Johns right (like always).

But, talk to some dudes in europe, they have more 5cyl 240's than we do for sure, and lets be honest that T5 just sounds soooo cool, I love the way mine sounds.

Actually though, a 1.9t from an s40 would be cool, though extremely tough to find, but figure an all Alum 4 banger volvo!

Doug
 
I would consider a 16V on a B23FT before a B5234T, sure if a B5234 is what you want then go ahead. The iron block isn't much heavier though, and if you get a B23F with Ft pistons then you don't have to worry about forged internals. All of the wiring scares me on the 850 motors, re-using all of that wiring for a stock EMS at high cost seems scketchy to me. 16V looks damn hard, but I would take it over a B5234 since most parts can be obtained for cheap and locally, the aftermarket EMS would be easier then trying to hash out all of the wires on a stock 850R. If you are bent on this I would go six cylinder as you will get a monster torque curve, the S80TT engine is about the same output as the R, but has monster torque, you could have that torque in a non torque steery car! For a trans for a high power car ie >350Hp, I would likely just get a dogbox adapted or some sort of sequential gizmo, jerico is a good as anyone. If you want a stock trans as I do you can adapt the getrag 262 or 265 for a redblock, or T5.
 
I rode in an S80 and it was torquey, torque steery, felt like the front suspension was attached by ropes to the car, and when you accelerate the car is pulled along while pulling the steering wheel side to side. What a POS, I dunno why you would ever buy such a car, when the 2000 V70R is there or the saab 9-5 aero or BMW 540 that are cheaper and better.
 
945ti said:
I rode in an S80 and it was torquey, torque steery, felt like the front suspension was attached by ropes to the car, and when you accelerate the car is pulled along while pulling the steering wheel side to side. What a POS, I dunno why you would ever buy such a car, when the 2000 V70R is there or the saab 9-5 aero or BMW 540 that are cheaper and better.

Really? The one I drove had very little torque steer, and my S60 has none!
 
Holy crap this is really catching on, I had no idea I would get this sort of response. I am interested in what you guys are saying, so here is my response to it all.

I am a restoration guy by trade and have plenty of welding and machining skills, plenty of custom fab skills, so I wasn't really concerned about the cost beyond the materials. Making engine mounts and crossmembers doesn't scare me one bit, it's a matter of getting all of the right stuff so that it will all hold the horsepower.
I don't know where the idea of a 500hp red block came from, but even if I were to dump enough money into a red block to achieve that horsepower, it would get horrible mileage (not that great to start) and not be driveable at all. I thought it would be cool to turn up the boost and do a little headwork to a T5 to get about 300 horse if that. I figure that's still going to get kick ass mileage, be very streetable, and a hell of a lot of fun. But many of you do make good points about the cost involved, and wether or not it would be worth the hassle. I guess the way I view it is, it would be worth the hassle. I am into 1800s as well, and there really isn't any point in spending a few years restoring an 1800 when you can just buy a decent one for a couple grand, but I am getting ready to put mine on a rotisserie. Why? I don't know, I love cars and am willing to go a little further for something I can appreciate. So when it comes to building this 5 cylinder 240, maybe it will happen and maybe it won't, but I still think it would be damn cool. It was never about the cost or time involved, it was about a unique idea that would drop a lot of jaws (at least in my rearview mirror).
 
Put the 5 Cyl. Into a 1800... That would be cool. You can have a 300 hp redblock that is streetable, you just have to make sure that you are modest when modifying it... (I.E. not TOOO Big injectors, and fuel enrichment only under boost to maintain mileage)
 
This was debated a long time ago on the other turbobricks forum. I remember somebody posted some pics of a guy with a 5 cyl turbo engine in a 100 wagon. CAN ANYBODY FIND THESE PICS? The caption said that he cut the firewall and he used the stock tranny. It looked like a lot of custom work. I agree with the others that it would be easier to go with a redblock and take it from there. Then again how cool would it be to sayyou have a 20valve 5cyl turbo! Do it and tell us about it.
 
Heres what you need:

:arrow: A B5234T - Easiest to find is a 97? turbo 850, it has this motor with a tuned down ECU 190hp (a lot easier to find then an R or T5, but is the same motor... then just get a chip or something)

:arrow: A M90 L (l?da) from a 960 (Euro) 6cyl White block

:arrow: An oil pan from 960 (euro) cut down to clear cross bar.

:arrow: Custom made motor mounts

:arrow: All electronics from the 850 (this is whats keeping me from doing this swap - wires and i dont mix)

:arrow: custom down pipe

:arrow: lots of time

If anyone is serious, i mean you have $6000 to blow and a shop ready to do it i'd be glad to direct you to a few folks i know that have done this in 140's 240's and 740's


-Dana
 
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