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How high a SCR for N/A B23 with VX, pump gas?

John V said:
While I concede that you know all, I personally am confused..I have right here in my little hands the 1990 edition of KS Master Piston catalog and it lists everything imaginable for the pistons they make>>

On page 617 it says:
Motor B23A, 2316ccm
77kW (104,5 PS) 10,3:1
mit vergaser
Fahrzeug 244,
Oktober 1981-Mai 85

Data shows cylinder bore 96mm.......46,4 Comp hgt -3,1 x bowl, 24 x 72 pin 1,75 top ring; 2mmm second ring and 4mm oil ring

on page 618 it says:
Motor B23 A, 2316ccm 82,5/84kW (112/114 PS)
10,3:1; mit vergaser
Fahrzeug 240, 244, 245,760
Oktober 1981-mai 84

Motor B23E, 2315ccm
95-103 kW (129-140 PS)
10/10,3:1 K-Jetronic Einspritzung
Fahrzug 240, 244, 740
August 1979-Mai 84

the data says 96mm cylinder diameter 46,4 compression height Flat top 26 x 72 pin

Block 3 on page 618 shows USA-ausf?hrung
Motor B23F 2316ccm
90kW )122,5 PS= 9,5:1;
K-Jetronic Einspritzung
Fahrzug 240 GLE, 760 GLE,
bis Mai 1984

Data shows 96mm cylinder bore 46,4 and -2,1 deep, rings and pin as before

Now I've only been here what 11 or so years, and yes I have read about 7390 times about 10,5 B23s so it must be right what I read here...

So if TB is, as always, right the question becomes how did the alternate OEM supplier
get stuff so wrong?

It might be a good idea if TB collectively drafted a letter to
Kolbenschmidt AG
Postfach 13
D-7107 Neckarsulm
or called + 0 7132/33-0

And straightened those dumb Krauts out.
Click to expand...

Right here in case you missed it the first time. Quoted so he can't change it again.
 
mocambique-amazone said:
John NEVER wrote about this piston not existing.

"Motor B23E, 2315ccm
95-103 kW (129-140 PS)
10/10,3:1 K-Jetronic Einspritzung
Fahrzug 240, 244, 740
August 1979-Mai 84

the data says 96mm cylinder diameter 46,4 compression height Flat top 26 x 72 pin"

The piston inside a used engine is for 100% the correct one? Ha! Did you ever open a NOS engine? I don't believe in used blocks. The owners told me every time: "100% original", and why the same type of engines where euqipped with different pistons etc ?
You guys, while proclaiming about John, forgot one important part of the engines totally:
The very very different combustion chamber at the Volvo B200/B23*/B21* heads.
If you think the CR is only done by the pistons, think again
In Europe we got cr ratios for the above N/A engines.

B230FB 9,3:1
B230F 9,8:1
B200F 10,0:1
B230KH 10,5:1 NO FREE RUNNER
B230K 10,3:1 7 serie
B230K 10,5:1 2 serie
B230A 10,3:1

with different heads.

the best cam from the factory I did used is the VX-3, never test it on a dyno. every "stock" cam sucks .




New adress for Kolbenschmidt, now Rheinmetall
MS Motorservice Deutschland GmbH
Rudolf-Diesel-Stra?e 9
71732 Tamm
Deutschland

Tel.: +49 7141 8661-0
Fax: +49 7141 8661-400

good luck with bashing, Kay
Click to expand...

7132 Tamm? Rheinmetall!!!??? those guys??? Yikes!

But I keep saying books are elitist.. And I have my book right here!
This is Merikuh and we have the right to believe anything we want.
That's how we are Making Merica Grape Again.

Which makes no sense but I believe it anyway.

Isn't arguing about what might have or might not have come in some stock boring POS thing 30 or even 40 years ago the path to spiritual enlightenment?
I've missed so much meaning and knowledge by merely looking at every motor as a core (what's that in the local dialekt? stomme?) for rebuilding since I BELIEVE all those things from 30 or 40 years ago are long worn out.
 
Valve lift at TDC is at the bottom of each page. Tried to think of everything I had ever seen relative to this stuff.

Also, documentation on anything anybody made back in the day is very very sketchy as best. You can use it until you find from experience or alternate documentation that it's contradicted, and don't be surprised when you do. To hold it as gospel is folly.
 
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It is my understanding that for 83 the higher compression engine was provided for both auto and manual transmission cars, for 84 only the automatics got the higher compression engines.

10.3 and 9.5 were the numbers iirc.
 
Redwood Chair said:
It is my understanding that for 83 the higher compression engine was provided for both auto and manual transmission cars, for 84 only the automatics got the higher compression engines.

10.3 and 9.5 were the numbers iirc.
Click to expand...

Yep.

My DD 83 B23F (M46 car) has flat top pistons. They are marked C/D/C/D. I didn't lay a straight edge across the top of the block last time I did the HG, but it certainly looked zero deck.

I have a core short block from an 84 that is a B23 and was also an M46 car. It has dishes on the piston tops.

Your experience may vary.
 
I asked for thoughts on a deliberately mild engine build and got a flame war over piston dish. Mild! 140 crank horsepower! I'll go bitchcakes and build a violent high comp high flow NA B20 when I get a stainless cam gear and tungsten carbide woodruff key or some ****. I'm saving the megasquirt and electric water pump and phenolic goddamn dildos for my 122. At this point I just want suggestions for timing my apparently wimpy VX cam - straight up, advance, retard? No I'm not getting a K cam please don't suggest that. The VX is said to make 136 hp and lb/ft stock, another four or five should be easy to achieve with basic machine work. I want to get the most out of this mild cam and stock everything while preserving reliability etc. I make $11 an hour while going to school, I only want to have a little fun with my daily since it broke a piston ring while half the county was in flames in October. I know my 240 is a money pit but I'm not concerned. I'm OK with comparatively low return on investment, I want what I want and I'm trying to avoid scope creep.
 
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B23F CR from the factory greenbooks:

1983:

499802: 10.3:1
499803: 10.3:1
499890: 9.5:1

1984:

499846: 9.5:1
499847: 10.3:1
499944: 9.5:1
499945: 10.3:1

Even last digit signifies manual. Odd signifies automatic. The 499890 engine was introduced mid-1983. So, not all 1983 manual transmission cars have flat-top pistons from the factory. By then, Volvo had switched from the white cap Chrysler distributor and Chrysler coil to orange cap Bosch distributor and Bosch coil. They actually did that a little earlier on, since you could get the 499802 engine with one. When the new engine came out, they also provided a ignition box with a more aggressive timing curve, the 1346105 box.

The 1984 499846 and 499847 engines are the same as the 499890 and 499803, except for the updated hall switch with the flat 3-pin connector attached directly to it, instead of the Chrysler round plug attached to a short harness. Sometime around mid-March 1984, the 499944 and 499945 engines came out. 3-wire O2 sensors, different headpipes with heat shields, and the preheat tube attached directly to the manifold with the "elephant trunk" stove. 1984 engines also switched to the 510 LH-Jet ECU that had the ability to control the preheat feature of the 3-wire sensor. The 1983 503 ECU may not have the ability to control the preheat coil. 1984 B23F engine wiring harnesses and the replacement harnesses all have the extra harness plug for the preheat coil. So, it is possible to convert any B23F to a 499944 or 499945 engine by replacing the oxygen sensor, and, if necessary, the LH-Jet ECU, as well as the distributor. I've updated a 499846 engine in an '84 245GL and a 499847 engine in another '84 245GL to the later specs. Didn't bother with the preheat tube stuff, though. Seattle weather usually doesn't get cold enough to need it.

Re: cam timing, try running it straight up. Had one in the 499846 engine that was timed straight up and it was decently powerful, granted, with 3.31 gears, even a K or H cam is going to feel a bit slow. If you like it, great. If not, then either go back to the 4 degrees advanced, or try retarding it a little. Ran a K cam in a B230F in an '85 245DL for a while. It felt stronger, but not as strong as the B23E in my old '81 242 did. Part of that was the dished pistons, the Chrysler ignition setup, etc., and part was gearing. Ignition timing with the K cam in the B230 was set to 8 deg BTDC. Otherwise, even with 92 octane, it'd ping. Some people have switched to breakerless ignition with LH 2.0. Another option would be to run the EZK102K box from an '84 760 Turbo with Bosch distributor and coil. Probably would integrate better with the LH 2.0 system than EZK117K from an LH 2.2 740GLE would.

-J
 
smncutler said:
I asked for thoughts on a deliberately mild engine build and got a flame war over piston dish. Mild! 140 crank horsepower! I'll go bitchcakes and build a violent high comp high flow NA B20 when I get a stainless cam gear and tungsten carbide woodruff key or some ****. I'm saving the megasquirt and electric water pump and phenolic goddamn dildos for my 122. At this point I just want suggestions for timing my apparently wimpy VX cam - straight up, advance, retard? No I'm not getting a K cam please don't suggest that. The VX is said to make 136 hp and lb/ft stock, another four or five should be easy to achieve with basic machine work. I want to get the most out of this mild cam and stock everything while preserving reliability etc. I make $11 an hour while going to school, I only want to have a little fun with my daily since it broke a piston ring while half the county was in flames in October. I know my 240 is a money pit but I'm not concerned. I'm OK with comparatively low return on investment, I want what I want and I'm trying to avoid scope creep.
Click to expand...

Go bitchcakes?

Is that like crabcakes with a little more spice?

I had the VX cam in my GT. Granted it was a b21 with Idontgiveafawk compression ratio, but no matter how I timed it, there was ZERO appreciable difference......... Maybe I need to calibrate my buttdyno.... dunno.

You're over thinking this. Time it straight up and drive the damn thing...

On a side note, I have also torn apart an '83 b23, had flat tops and a forged crank.
 
Without running this engine on a dyno, there is no way one is going to be able to tell the difference in performance by changing the cam timing a couple of degrees. OP, you're going to have to experiment with it and see for yourself.
 
OK, fair enough. I might try running it straight up, I can deal with less low end torque and while I do have a 3.31 the M46 1st is pretty low and I like to wind out the gears. It helps that the car is stripped out, 2840 pounds with half a tank.
My B23 is series 802, 10.3:1 compression, flat tops, forged crank, LH 2.0 and Chrysler ignition.
 
Hmmm, so white cap? If so, troll the yards for one of the later 1983 (or an '84 part and convert to the flat 3-pin connector) Bosch distributors and a Bosch coil. You'll get rid of the cap that has to be screwed down and switch to the more common Bosch 056 cap with the spring clips. The other thing is that you may gain 7 hp. The B23F with the chrysler white cap setup was rated at 107 hp. Same engine with the Bosch setup, but same Chrysler computer, went to 114 hp.
 
Thanks for the suggestion, I have the screw on white cap, but how would a distributor of all things give me more power?
 
Different advance curve would be in the unit not the distributor. I can see that gaining hp if you have a more optimal advance curve. See if the chrysler box has a different part number with a bosch distributor or a chrysler distributor. They may have the different advance curve if different units were used. Or maybe it's another one of those Volvo typos from back in the day. :lol:
 
So ignition curve is something I can play with using stock parts... will investigate.
 
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culberro said:
1983 B23F piston, stolen from the local FB page:

Click to expand...

This was the same for some 1982 Volvos as well.

I have said this before and have been ridiculed so much by John V for doing so but I don't effing care.

He's wrong.

The b23 can be made interference by shaving .040 off the head.

He probably doesn't know about the 1982 240 GT either. But that's fine. He knows it all and that is enough ;-)
 
John242Ti said:
Hmmm, so white cap? If so, troll the yards for one of the later 1983 (or an '84 part and convert to the flat 3-pin connector) Bosch distributors and a Bosch coil. You'll get rid of the cap that has to be screwed down and switch to the more common Bosch 056 cap with the spring clips. The other thing is that you may gain 7 hp. The B23F with the chrysler white cap setup was rated at 107 hp. Same engine with the Bosch setup, but same Chrysler computer, went to 114 hp.
Click to expand...

Actually, I recommend ditching the Chrysler amplifier as well as the connector is so unreliable on that half assed design.

Pull the amplifier and distributor from an 83, 84, 85 Bosch car and bin the Chrysler stuff all together.
 
swedefiend said:
This was the same for some 1982 Volvos as well.

I have said this before and have been ridiculed so much by John V for doing so but I don't effing care.

He's wrong.

The b23 can be made interference by shaving .040 off the head.

He probably doesn't know about the 1982 240 GT either. But that's fine. He knows it all and that is enough ;-)
Click to expand...
82's are 2.1L still. So while it may be a flat top piston, it's a different size.

Or by just adding a K cam. But who cares if it's interference or not?

82 GT? Huh? 79-81 GT, then they dropped the "GT" and had "Turbo" and "GLT".
 
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