home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > projects & restorations

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-07-2019, 09:38 PM   #726
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Default Borg Warner S252 sx-e install

I also bit the bullet and installed the turbo I bought last summer. It's a bigger turbo than I was planning on getting, but I got a smaller turbine housing in hopes to get some spool back. I'm using a Tial MVS for boost control.

Due to space constraints and the fact that I'm using the stock manifold, this is what I did for the wastegate.



I don't know what I was thinking with that setup, but it didn't clear the inner fender at all. So I cut it all apart and came up with this:



I'm hoping that the re-entry into the downpipe works ok, since it's kind of merging with the downward 90 degree bend. There's also a pretty big hole in the downpipe:



I had Noah mill my manifold flat and hog it out to T3 size on his mill:



I then bent some stainless lines for the oil feed and wastegate, and ended up with this:





I don't have much time on the turbo yet, but I'm pretty pleased so far. It obviously doesn't spool like a 19t, but it's really not bad. I'm getting positive boost by 2000 rpm, and 20 psi by 3500. My 4.30:1 rear end probably helps with that. LH seems to want to over fuel, so I haven't gotten a bunch of clean 20 psi pulls. Usually by 20 psi and about 4500 rpm, it goes super richs and bogs. I suspect it's also pulling timing. Once I get the tuning sorted, I think this car is going to be a riot.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 12:05 AM   #727
gsellstr
Vintage anti-ricer
 
gsellstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Somewhere in a northern California smog bank
Default

Really nice looking update there Tyler! I was wondering how that bigger balancer would do. I might play with a few ideas on mine as well, seeing that it did make a difference.
__________________
RIP
Doug Williams "Mr. Doug" 4/15/2009
Pete Fluitman "fivehundred" 7/14/2013
Mick Starkey "TrickMick" 1/10/14
Mark Baldwin "blue850t5" 7/19/18
Nick Fengler "fengler" 8/6/18
Thomas Fritz "stealthfti" 10/11/18


74 144 B20
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=224983

90 745Ti
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=334698

If you need Superpro bushings PM me for price and availability!
gsellstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 01:13 AM   #728
Duder
His Dudeness, El Duderino
 
Duder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post
I'm hoping that the re-entry into the downpipe works ok, since it's kind of merging with the downward 90 degree bend. There's also a pretty big hole in the downpipe
That should work just fine. Looks really good in terms of flow re-entry into the downpipe. The wastegate flow shouldn't interfere with the turbine outflow very much at all.

Also great that you included a diverging nozzle at the turbine outlet - will help the turbine make more shaft power and helps keep your exhaust backpressure down.

All your recent progress looks good man!
Duder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 11:25 AM   #729
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
Really nice looking update there Tyler! I was wondering how that bigger balancer would do. I might play with a few ideas on mine as well, seeing that it did make a difference.
Yeah, I'd say it was a worthwhile effort. My trans is definitely not silent now, but it's a lot better. It seemed to smooth everything out, like a slightly heavier flywheel, but different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duder View Post
That should work just fine. Looks really good in terms of flow re-entry into the downpipe. The wastegate flow shouldn't interfere with the turbine outflow very much at all.

Also great that you included a diverging nozzle at the turbine outlet - will help the turbine make more shaft power and helps keep your exhaust backpressure down.

All your recent progress looks good man!
Thanks! I haven't been able to really dial in the boost control yet, but I am wondering how low I'll be able to set it with this arrangement. It seems like it could creep a bit, since the wastegate isn't given priority. But like you said, it should be better for the turbine, and I'm going to want to run 20+ psi anyway.

I think my next big project will have to be tuning related. Either go to MS, or at least try one of your wasted spark boards with LH for now. I get this high boost, high rpm over rich situation, and it bogs down or sputters. I was thinking it was just over fueling, but it just occured to me that it could be spark blowout, which could read rich on my wideband?
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 11:53 AM   #730
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

It's wierd seeing a OHC motor mounted straight up and down
__________________
I don't know who I am when I am somebody else.
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 11:58 AM   #731
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Rick View Post
It's wierd seeing a OHC motor mounted straight up and down
I've never had another Volvo, so it's weird for me when I see them slanted.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 02:54 PM   #732
Harlard
Pro Sneaker Peddler
 
Harlard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: PDX
Default

It's so much better in terms of fitting turbo stuff. Wonder whether the engine slant was built in for pedestrian safety.
__________________


Herr Harlard am Erstens

1979 242 DL

Quote:
Originally Posted by t8fanning View Post
My knob has a big chunk of steel on it
Harlard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 03:17 PM   #733
Hank Scorpio
Chubfest 2009 Survivor
 
Hank Scorpio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The neighborhood with the ******* guitar player.
Default

Looks great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
It's so much better in terms of fitting turbo stuff. Wonder whether the engine slant was built in for pedestrian safety.
I'd imagine it's to give room for longer runner intake manifolds and brake booster / strut tower clearance. The exhaust side (except for the turbos) is fairly compact.
__________________
Hank Scorpio is from the Simpsons. You can call me Doug ;)
Will trade guitars/guitar parts for go fast goodies or stuff I need. Just PM.
www.kauerguitars.com the second best way to upset neighbors and alienate people.
History: Car 1 (242) | Car 2 (t5r) | Car 3 (255)
Hank Scorpio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 03:20 PM   #734
Stiggy Pop
Board Member
 
Stiggy Pop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Granville, MA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duder View Post
Also great that you included a diverging nozzle at the turbine outlet - will help the turbine make more shaft power and helps keep your exhaust backpressure down.
can you 'splain? I'm interested and I keep squinting at the pictures and can't spot what you're referring to.
__________________
'79 242
943 pickup
Stiggy Pop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 04:22 PM   #735
Duder
His Dudeness, El Duderino
 
Duder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
It's so much better in terms of fitting turbo stuff. Wonder whether the engine slant was built in for pedestrian safety.
Reading through old Volvo literature recently I came across the explanation... engine was slanted to make room for K-jet bits on the intake side and the related intake manifold design(s) required to meet emissions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiggy Pop View Post
can you 'splain? I'm interested and I keep squinting at the pictures and can't spot what you're referring to.
Sorry for the jargon. By diverging nozzle I'm just referring to the tapered tube at the turbine housing outlet, going up to his full downpipe diameter.

Radial turbines generate shaft power via momentum transfer from the exhaust gas, but expansion ratio (inlet pressure/outlet pressure) plays an important part. By allowing the outlet flow to expand in a diverging nozzle you can reduce the expansion ratio needed to produce the required amount of shaft power at a given mass flow rate. Lower post-turbine pressure then results in lower pre-turbine exhaust backpressure. Helps improve engine VE reducing restriction, allows for more timing advance before the knock threshold, gets your exhaust manifold pressure down closer to intake manifold pressure; all good stuff.
Duder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 04:48 PM   #736
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duder View Post
Sorry for the jargon. By diverging nozzle I'm just referring to the tapered tube at the turbine housing outlet, going up to his full downpipe diameter.

Radial turbines generate shaft power via momentum transfer from the exhaust gas, but expansion ratio (inlet pressure/outlet pressure) plays an important part. By allowing the outlet flow to expand in a diverging nozzle you can reduce the expansion ratio needed to produce the required amount of shaft power at a given mass flow rate. Lower post-turbine pressure then results in lower pre-turbine exhaust backpressure. Helps improve engine VE reducing restriction, allows for more timing advance before the knock threshold, gets your exhaust manifold pressure down closer to intake manifold pressure; all good stuff.
Uh.. yeah! I meant to put all that in my original post. Must have slipped my mind.

Seriously though, thanks for sharing your turbo knowledge with us.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 06:03 PM   #737
Duder
His Dudeness, El Duderino
 
Duder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post
Uh.. yeah! I meant to put all that in my original post. Must have slipped my mind.

Seriously though, thanks for sharing your turbo knowledge with us.
No worries. I thought it was pretty interesting when I learned about the downpipe's potential affect on performance. Common knowledge is "the best turbo exhaust is no exhaust," which is generally true in that minimizing post-turbine restriction is beneficial. But of course there are always subtle details that can help or hurt.
Duder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 06:54 PM   #738
Harlard
Pro Sneaker Peddler
 
Harlard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: PDX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Scorpio View Post
Looks great!



I'd imagine it's to give room for longer runner intake manifolds and brake booster / strut tower clearance. The exhaust side (except for the turbos) is fairly compact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duder View Post
Reading through old Volvo literature recently I came across the explanation... engine was slanted to make room for K-jet bits on the intake side and the related intake manifold design(s) required to meet emissions.

THANKS FOR NOTHING, BOSCH.

Quote:

Sorry for the jargon. By diverging nozzle I'm just referring to the tapered tube at the turbine housing outlet, going up to his full downpipe diameter.

Radial turbines generate shaft power via momentum transfer from the exhaust gas, but expansion ratio (inlet pressure/outlet pressure) plays an important part. By allowing the outlet flow to expand in a diverging nozzle you can reduce the expansion ratio needed to produce the required amount of shaft power at a given mass flow rate. Lower post-turbine pressure then results in lower pre-turbine exhaust backpressure. Helps improve engine VE reducing restriction, allows for more timing advance before the knock threshold, gets your exhaust manifold pressure down closer to intake manifold pressure; all good stuff.
That's very informative. Thanks for explaining!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duder View Post
No worries. I thought it was pretty interesting when I learned about the downpipe's potential affect on performance. Common knowledge is "the best turbo exhaust is no exhaust," which is generally true in that minimizing post-turbine restriction is beneficial. But of course there are always subtle details that can help or hurt.
Open dump user here. Butt dyno has no regrets. The responsible adult in me feels pretty guilty, however...


On a separate, but related note, I do wonder how that turbo would go with my 16v setup. The T3 housing could be convenient. Not too sure about whether it would become a choke point at high RPM...

Last edited by Harlard; 01-08-2019 at 08:31 PM..
Harlard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 07:10 PM   #739
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
On a separate, but related note, I do wonder how that turbo would go with my 16v setup. The T3 housing could be convenient. Not too sure about whether it would become a choke point at high RPM...
AGP offers a T3 housings in .63, I think. I was just super scared of lag, so I went with the tiny .48. The .63 T3 housing has a 3" v-band outlet option, too.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 07:12 PM   #740
R32RennSport
Board Member
 
R32RennSport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Atascadero, CA
Default

Just love a functional car with functional mods... this 140 is how it should be done.
__________________
.:R32 RennSport

1966 Volvo Amazon, 2004 VW R32 Golf, 2001 BMW 525it Sport, 2001 Chevy 1500
R32RennSport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 08:08 PM   #741
Stiggy Pop
Board Member
 
Stiggy Pop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Granville, MA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duder View Post
Radial turbines generate shaft power via momentum transfer from the exhaust gas, but expansion ratio (inlet pressure/outlet pressure) plays an important part. By allowing the outlet flow to expand in a diverging nozzle you can reduce the expansion ratio needed to produce the required amount of shaft power at a given mass flow rate. Lower post-turbine pressure then results in lower pre-turbine exhaust backpressure. Helps improve engine VE reducing restriction, allows for more timing advance before the knock threshold, gets your exhaust manifold pressure down closer to intake manifold pressure; all good stuff.
thanks for taking the time to explain it, learn something new every day!
Stiggy Pop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 08:41 PM   #742
gsellstr
Vintage anti-ricer
 
gsellstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Somewhere in a northern California smog bank
Default

Hell, I'm running a .63 on my 2871R with no issues with lag whatsoever (especially with a good tune, cold temps, and E85...lol).
gsellstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2019, 12:16 AM   #743
Duder
His Dudeness, El Duderino
 
Duder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post
AGP offers a T3 housings in .63, I think. I was just super scared of lag, so I went with the tiny .48. The .63 T3 housing has a 3" v-band outlet option, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
Hell, I'm running a .63 on my 2871R with no issues with lag whatsoever (especially with a good tune, cold temps, and E85...lol).
Careful with comparing the same numerical A/R across different turbo frame sizes. A/R is just a ratio, and within a frame size there will be a family of several different A/Rs. But as you go up in turbine wheel diameter (from GT28 to T3) the "R" (centroid radius) of the housing scroll will grow and therefore the A (flow area) also has to get bigger to maintain the same numerical A/R.

TL/DR: 0.63 A/R housing designed for a T3 turbine wheel (likely 65mm wheel inducer diameter) will flow more than a 0.63 A/R on a GT28 (54mm inducer diameter).

Edit: I just looked up the S252 sx-e turbine specs; it has a 70mm inducer so the difference in housing flow would be even more pronounced.
Duder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2019, 01:42 AM   #744
Devsbeater
Board Member
 
Devsbeater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kelowna BC, Canada
Default

This build is so satisfying to look at.
__________________
244 with suspension stuff
244 with turbo stuff

OBS F350 CCLB Powerstroke
GenI Legacy Wagon EJ22T
R50 Pathfinder VQ35
Devsbeater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 02:34 PM   #745
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Default

I don't have too much to update, other than to say I solved my high rpm/high boost misfire. It always seemed to coincide with a 10.0 reading on my AFR gauge, so I thought LH was just going rich enough under load to give me a rich misfire. It happened with the 19t at 18+ psi, and the s252 around 12+ psi.

I don't know why I never thought about spark blowout, but that was the issue. My BPR7ES plugs were gapped at .030. Set them at .021 and the issue is completely gone. This turbo feels strong all the way to redline at 20 psi!
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 02:54 PM   #746
Uncleknucklez
bruspeed
 
Uncleknucklez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sacramento, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post
I don't have too much to update, other than to say I solved my high rpm/high boost misfire. It always seemed to coincide with a 10.0 reading on my AFR gauge, so I thought LH was just going rich enough under load to give me a rich misfire. It happened with the 19t at 18+ psi, and the s252 around 12+ psi.

I don't know why I never thought about spark blowout, but that was the issue. My BPR7ES plugs were gapped at .030. Set them at .021 and the issue is completely gone. This turbo feels strong all the way to redline at 20 psi!
Interesting, I also never thought about closing the gap and always ran my BPR7ES at .028
Glad you found something so simple to fix the issue!
__________________
1980 242 Turbo
2004 V70R

Uncleknucklez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 04:08 PM   #747
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncleknucklez View Post
Interesting, I also never thought about closing the gap and always ran my BPR7ES at .028
Glad you found something so simple to fix the issue!
Yeah I can't believe I never thought to do that before. It's been an issue since day one.

Now I want to improve my ignition set up so I can run more than .021 and get some more power out of it without blow out.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 05:54 PM   #748
soclosenotnear
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: summerville, south carolina
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post
Yeah I can't believe I never thought to do that before. It's been an issue since day one.

Now I want to improve my ignition set up so I can run more than .021 and get some more power out of it without blow out.
I know you wanna get away from lh2.4 but go the wasted spark route if you end up staying with it. I had to close my spark plug gap to somewhere around that with higher boost, even out of my 16t, before doing it.
soclosenotnear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 07:36 PM   #749
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by soclosenotnear View Post
I know you wanna get away from lh2.4 but go the wasted spark route if you end up staying with it. I had to close my spark plug gap to somewhere around that with higher boost, even out of my 16t, before doing it.
I've actually been messaging Duder about wasted spark on LH. It seems like a decent stop gap until I have more time to do MS, and I can keep using the wasted spark Bosch coil even after I ditch LH.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2019, 03:17 AM   #750
gsellstr
Vintage anti-ricer
 
gsellstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Somewhere in a northern California smog bank
Default

I'm still sitting at around .025 or so with no blowout issues even when boost spiked to 26psi. BlasterSS and MSD6A though. The Blaster alone did make a noticeable difference. Next time you're up this way Tyler...
gsellstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:58 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.