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Old 05-01-2019, 10:53 PM   #1
Jack
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Default t5 to B230 clutch failure analysis ?

back story T5 behind a OHC redblock

clutch from yoshifab - NEW - bought second hand
pressure plate new B230 turbo
mustang TO bearing
mustang pilot bearing


I was going to use JohnV flywheel, but I found out I was the last one that got one that was machined wrong. It was the weekend and I just threw the old (not resurfaced one) - I needed the car for monday.

almost immediately it started to slip.

made a thread about it - conclusion of thread. Possibly wrong size pressure plate, TO bearing needs to be the one that shims or because flywheel wasnt machined

I have the engine and trans out (doing a 16V swap)
- I have a saab pressure plate
- I have ford adjustable TO bearing
- I think I have a new clutch

TLDR - this is what the less than 1k clutch and pressure plate look like. It looks to me as if my massive amount of oil leaks is what caused this
opinions please

lots of oil around flywheel


facing the flywheel


facing the pressure plate





is the clutch even usable at this point ?
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Old 05-01-2019, 11:06 PM   #2
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Man, that thing is soaked in oil! Slim chance you could burn the oil out with a torch, but I'd look into getting a new disc at the very least and something strong to pull the oil from the plate and FW.
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Old 05-01-2019, 11:12 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
Man, that thing is soaked in oil! Slim chance you could burn the oil out with a torch, but I'd look into getting a new disc at the very least and something strong to pull the oil from the plate and FW.
yeah I didnt think its salvageable

Im pretty sure I have one

how do you know when your TO bearing is adjusted right without taking the trans in/out to shim it
or how many shims have you boys used ?
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Old 05-02-2019, 10:43 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack View Post
how do you know when your TO bearing is adjusted right without taking the trans in/out to shim it
or how many shims have you boys used ?
I've done it two ways: measurements and basic math using the bell housing and block as datums. Or find/make a feeler gauge and reached in through the clutch fork hole in the bell housing (that was for a bearing with a threaded adjustment so I could also reach in and adjust the thing in situ)
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Old 05-02-2019, 11:03 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Jack View Post
how do you know when your TO bearing is adjusted right without taking the trans in/out to shim it
or how many shims have you boys used ?
It's a T5...you can put the bell housing on with clutch in place and adjust the clutch without the trans in place. Cable? When properly adjusted, the fork will have a bit of free play when pulling back (towards the back of the car). I believe the spec is 3-5mm free play. I pull back on the fork and want a bit of movement...just enough...but not too much. I've adjusted a 240 clutch so many times that I no longer have to slide out and hop in the car and check the pedal height & feel.

On my 240 w/T5, M46 clutch fork w/cable, McLeod Mustang adjustable-height bearing, I ended up leaving both spacers in the release bearing. Others had done the same, so I figured it would work, and it did. On our 24hr lemons car, I had taken the less expensive route in the hopes of using a common off-the-shelf release bearing (in the event of failure during a race weekend, I want to be able to buy a replacement). The Timken Mustang release bearing was sufficiently inexpensive (< $20), but it was a lot shorter than the McLeod ~$90 adj. one, and we couldn't get full disengagement without preloading the adjustment of the cable so it pressed the release bearing against the pressure plate. Switching to the taller release bearing fixed the problem.

If I was working alone and I wanted to check before I heft the trans into place, I think I would adjust the clutch as I normally would for the ~3-5mm play at the fork, then wedge a pry bar against the clutch pedal so it's on the floor and then check that the disc spins with a spare input shaft (clutch alignment tool) inserted through the disc. The feel of the clutch pedal should also tell you if it's right.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:10 PM   #6
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^ thank you I’ll try it with both. Did you shim your clutch fork at all?
I had the standard size TO on my setup with no shimming of fork and it seem to work fine.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:10 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Stiggy Pop View Post
I've done it two ways: measurements and basic math using the bell housing and block as datums. Or find/make a feeler gauge and reached in through the clutch fork hole in the bell housing (that was for a bearing with a threaded adjustment so I could also reach in and adjust the thing in situ)
Iím not that smart
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:23 PM   #8
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Which Saab PP are you using on the new setup?

If it's a cable clutch setup, just set the free play like stock.

I only had to space the pivot ball when I installed the Saab Viggen 215/228 PP.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:30 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by culberro View Post
Which Saab PP are you using on the new setup?

If it's a cable clutch setup, just set the free play like stock.

I only had to space the pivot ball when I installed the Saab Viggen 215/228 PP.
From my thread. (Iíll check in a few)
Saab 9000 clutch pressure plate 8736761 Sachs 3082 217 232

https://forums.turbobricks.com/showt...=336834&page=2
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:45 PM   #10
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Like Towey mentioned, the way I figured out my T5/John V billet/Saab 240mm clutch situation was to stick the bellhousing on without the trans, but with everything else in place (and a cltuch alignment tool to keep the disc in place).

Before I even hooked up the cable, I could immediately tell that the Saab PP was too short - by the time the TO bearing touched the PP fingers, the lever was *almost* all the way forward. Maybe 1/4 of an inch of travel left. So I just took the BH off, added some spacers, (longer bolt on outside, washers inside) until the clutch fork first touched the PP at roughly 1/3rd of the travel from the back (I assumed as the clutch wore, the fingers would move back, I needed some room to adjust that way). Then I put the cable on and adjusted that until it let the clutch fork come *slightly* off the PP fingers. I also ensured this happens by adding a spring to pull the fork backward, even though that's not stock fitment on later model 240s (I think?). But I learned that the hard way with the stock flywheel/PP/etc earlier on - no external spring, and the TO bearing lightly touched the PP the whole time. Which was fine for short trips around town over thousands of miles, but the first time I took it on a long road trip (down to SE) the constant spinning finally warmed up the TO bearing, which flung out the grease, which then destroyed the TO bearing and precipitated a quickie TO bearing swap in Kenny's driveway. (still made the track night, though)

Then got in and pressed the clutch pedal, it felt good/normal/nominal/whatever. Slapped the trans in. One of the best parts about the T5 swap is the ability to put the bellhousing on first, then the trans, at least on a 240 where space is tight around the starter hump. Drove it, did another minute adjustment on the cable, it was good.
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Old 05-02-2019, 01:33 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMc View Post
Like Towey mentioned, the way I figured out my T5/John V billet/Saab 240mm clutch situation was to stick the bellhousing on without the trans, but with everything else in place (and a cltuch alignment tool to keep the disc in place).

Before I even hooked up the cable, I could immediately tell that the Saab PP was too short - by the time the TO bearing touched the PP fingers, the lever was *almost* all the way forward. Maybe 1/4 of an inch of travel left. So I just took the BH off, added some spacers, (longer bolt on outside, washers inside) until the clutch fork first touched the PP at roughly 1/3rd of the travel from the back (I assumed as the clutch wore, the fingers would move back, I needed some room to adjust that way). Then I put the cable on and adjusted that until it let the clutch fork come *slightly* off the PP fingers. I also ensured this happens by adding a spring to pull the fork backward, even though that's not stock fitment on later model 240s (I think?). But I learned that the hard way with the stock flywheel/PP/etc earlier on - no external spring, and the TO bearing lightly touched the PP the whole time. Which was fine for short trips around town over thousands of miles, but the first time I took it on a long road trip (down to SE) the constant spinning finally warmed up the TO bearing, which flung out the grease, which then destroyed the TO bearing and precipitated a quickie TO bearing swap in Kenny's driveway. (still made the track night, though)

Then got in and pressed the clutch pedal, it felt good/normal/nominal/whatever. Slapped the trans in. One of the best parts about the T5 swap is the ability to put the bellhousing on first, then the trans, at least on a 240 where space is tight around the starter hump. Drove it, did another minute adjustment on the cable, it was good.
Thank you, I will do this. I agree about the return spring, had one on already.
The bellhousing removal is a big plus - I love that about the m40/41
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Old 05-03-2019, 03:33 PM   #12
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Is there a way around the spacer deal with this pressure plate? Or is the solution to just get a custom plate made? I did the spacer trick on my 242, and while it works, it has a wicked vibration in the clutch at 3000 rpm.
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Old 05-03-2019, 03:37 PM   #13
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From my thinking, that's unlikely to be related to a clutch fork spacer.
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Old 05-03-2019, 08:43 PM   #14
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Ohhh I thought we were referencing spacing of the pressure plate. Carry-on...
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