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Old 11-06-2018, 04:01 AM   #26
kingkong
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Hi guys, thread digger.

I've got the same problem as OP : swapped a B230FK in my 89' 244, that had a B200E.
Kept the B200E alternator, as the 100AMP didn't fit with the new turbo manifold.

I got stock on the side of the road11.5V at the battery when idling. The charging warning light goes ON when i turn on the headlights.

This is what it looks like :








About the plastic washers : it seems i have it under the B+ connection.
For the D+, it is a direct spade connector. I check the connection and put some WD40 for good measure.

I also checked the connector next to the oil dipstick and the harness for the alternator, all good.

I also checked the cluster. The only mod i did was the removal of the stock clock, to replace it with a rev counter, but i didn't plug it yet.

For the cluster, this is what and how it is plugged : the colors match. Only the plug rounded in blue is not plugged in. I can't remember but i supposed it was for the clock.






Now i tested the exciter wire, and it has +12V when key turned on, engine OFF, instead of the 1.6V.

Any ideas ? Thanks people.
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Old 11-06-2018, 01:35 PM   #27
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The wire in blue circle is the rev counter wire. Connects to terminal 1 on the back of the rev counter. The weird light on with the headlights seems like there is a wrong connection probably on one of the two black plugs. I would look at the wiring diagram for your stock B200E and see what the difference is if it was a 1989 with the LH2.4 engine setup. There is a round pin extractor tool you can get which slides onto the pins and releases them so you can change the wiring around.
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Old 11-06-2018, 02:56 PM   #28
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OK we have some good news and bad news.

Good news is : I didn't have ground on the alternator because I wired it on the alternator bracket and electricity doesn't go through rubber...
So now I have 13.7v idling.

The bad news is : now the car won't stop!! Well it does only if the plug in the red circle on the pic above, is unplugged from the dash.

Engine idling :

If the plug is in, and the key ON, I get this :




If the key is OFF, I get this :



Any idea?

Last edited by kingkong; 11-06-2018 at 03:12 PM..
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Old 11-06-2018, 07:01 PM   #29
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See my above post about making sure the pins are in the correct positions for using that dash.
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Old 11-07-2018, 03:42 AM   #30
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Thank you for schiming in. I didn't swap the dash, only removed the clock and put in the rev counter. But the dash is stock, as well as the plug and pins.
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Old 11-07-2018, 07:30 PM   #31
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Oh ok. Well then there is some type of constant power supply to something that should not get power. There is a constant power feed to the pin that is supplying the clock and it also passes through the tach to the small clock if you use that harness. Seems like there is something shorted in the circuit board. Maybe one of the diodes on the circuit board is bent over touching something it should not? that constant power feed iis usually a red wire on the connectors. From there you can trace the connection to the pin for the clock.
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Old 11-15-2018, 04:46 PM   #32
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I did a bit more research.

I swapped all the parts on the dash, and it changed nothing, so the dash is out of the equation.

Facts :
1. With all the plugs of the dash plugged in, if i remove the tachometer plug, car will stall.
2. With all the plugs of the dash plugged in, if i remove the barrel plug, car will stall.
3. If i disconnect the ignition switch, car will stall.
4. With all the plugs of the dash plugged in, if i turn OFF the key, i read 13.7V at the battery, and eveything goes off on the dash, except for the battery light.

It is getting ****ing annoying.

What could i test that would help us solve this ?
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Old 11-15-2018, 07:08 PM   #33
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Well the last bad bosch type alternator I had to deal with on my mothers 240 had a short internally that fed B+ to D+. So the battery light never came on but never any charging either. If the battery light is on you must be getting ground and power somewhere.

1. the car should run fine whether the tach wire is connected to a tach or not. This is the white/red wire correct? That is the tach connection for the gauge.
2.The car should run with the barrel plug disconnected. If you start the car with it disconnected you may not have a charging alternator due to the charge light circuit not getting any battery power.
3.Normal. You took away power to the ignition coil and other important stuff.
4. 13.7 is an ok battery voltage. Under those same conditions. What voltage do you read on B+ (large red) and D+ (small red) at the alternator? B+ should be the same as battery. D+ should not have any voltage at all.

I'm thinking you may have some wiring shorted in the engine compartment like either at the large gray multipin plug at the back or along the path to the alternator which the harness goes along the block and the dives under the crank to go around and under the crank pulley to come out where the alternator is. If the B+ wire shorts to the D+ wire in there. It could cause something like this.
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Old 11-16-2018, 05:48 AM   #34
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1. No i am talking about the plug in the green circle on my previous pics. Actually, i narrowed it down to the red wire of this plug, which is a switched +12v, according to this diagram (wire 233/3) :




2. OK i will try to start the car without this plug to see what happens.

3. OK
4. I will measure and let you know.

I quote you :

"I'm thinking you may have some wiring shorted in the engine compartment like either at the large gray multipin plug at the back or along the path to the alternator which the harness goes along the block and the dives under the crank to go around and under the crank pulley to come out where the alternator is. If the B+ wire shorts to the D+ wire in there. It could cause something like this."

That brings a question : in a normal working 240, when you turn it off, does it stall because :

1. You cut all current comming from battery and alt by opening a relay (like a main relay) and then the ECU is shut off then it stalls ?

2. You cut the current comming from the battery, and at the same time you cut the excitation on D+ thus the alt stops charging (but the alt circuit is still closed, just not generating any current anymore) , then the car stalls ?


Because what i didn't tell you not to put you on a wrong lead, is that i run an MS3x with a dedicated harness, brand new from battery to new relays and new fusebox. I left everything of the original harness plugged in so i could avoid this kind of problem.

To start the MS3 relay, i spliced a fairly thick wsitched +12v that runs behind the glove box.
So since the car doesn't stall when i turn it off, that means this switched +12v still gets some current with key off. Maybe it can give you some indication.
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Old 11-16-2018, 07:22 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingkong View Post
1. No i am talking about the plug in the green circle on my previous pics. Actually, i narrowed it down to the red wire of this plug, which is a switched +12v, according to this diagram (wire 233/3) :
Since I've already polluted this thread somewhat, I'll throw in my observation there may be a bit of translation difficulty. In the US we call the rev counter a tachometer, and the tachymètre is called the speedometer. Still I can't think why disconnecting switched +12 from the instrument cluster, where it connects through 233/3 would stop the motor... MS3x...
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Old 11-16-2018, 01:10 PM   #36
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Alright I'm onto something.

I disconnected every wire on the alternator except ground, and grounded the exciter cable straight onto the battery.
I turn the key, everything lights up as usual. I start the engine, lights don't go out (of course).
I turn it off and it stalls right away.
I'm going to check the voltages on D+ in all the conditions and report back.

Regarding my previous messages, if it accepts to stall when I unplug the 233 at the dash, that should mean that something is going on with the exciter wire.
Wire is in good condition from connector next to dip stick, all the way to the alt. I opened the plastic sleeve and replaced it while I was there.
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Old 11-16-2018, 01:18 PM   #37
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By the way, do you guys know what is this brown wire at the back of the alt? And the component to where the brown wire goes, what does it do?
On mine, brown wire is on B+. Good or not?
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Old 11-16-2018, 01:24 PM   #38
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Please post a diagram of your MS3x relay connections. I'm wondering if you have some weird backwards power path that provides enough voltage on the switched +12 wire after turning the ignition off to keep the LH ECU/EZK on.

Normally, the ECU senses the switched +12v voltage and energizes the two halves of the system/fuel pump relay.

[It looks like the alternator dash wire can weakly back-power the switched +12v wire through the battery warning lamp, but this wouldn't provide enough voltage by itself to keep everything running. There may also be a path within the ignition switch between main switched +12v pin and switched +12v to ignition system.]

Edit: I think the brown wire, and little black box, on the back of the alternator is a filter capacitor to ground.
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:08 PM   #39
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OK The D+ wire has 12v from the battery on it when you turn the key on. If you ground the wire that tests the bulb in the dash. It is actually good to ground it to the alternator housing to test it since that will also test how good the ground wire is from the alterntaor housing to the engine block. You do have a good ground wire from te altrnator housing to the engine block correct?

Once the D+ provided the excitation to start the charging. The alternator matches the voltage on D+ and that makes the lights go out on the dash.

As Bpb wrote that is a filter condenser on the back of the altrnator.

You should not need a lot of current for the switched power part of the MS relays so you could switch that with switched power from the fuse box. Typcially Volvo uses fuse 12 or 13 for that depending on the fuel system used in the car.
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:30 PM   #40
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WEEEELLLLLL!!!!

So. I started the car. Went under and unplugged the exciter.
Turn the key off : car stalls!!
So I start it again, thinking the alt would not come back online. Guess what, 14.0v at the battery. Even higher than the 13.7v I had with the exciter wire plugged in.

So now I am left with part of the dash light that won't light up when key is turned on, of course.
But we are making progress.

About my ms3x install, I tried to feed it with another battery and it didn't change a thing on the symptoms so nothing to worry about.

I mesures the voltage between exciter wire and ground : same as B+ at all times.
Then I measured the voltage between the D+ spade on the alt, and ground.
Engine off, I get 0.
Enginerunning I got 14v.

Summary : when engine is running, 14v between exciter wire and ground. Also 14v between D+ spade and ground.
But when the exciter wire is plugged, car won't stall.

We almost there people
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:56 PM   #41
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At this point, I would try disconnecting the exciter circuit from the instrument panel side instead of at the alternator. Unpin the red wire from #11 and see if that changes the scenario.

What your maps don't show is D+ is used as an "engine turning" indication by both SRS and ABS in later models, and for AC delay in earlier models.
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Old 11-16-2018, 03:23 PM   #42
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Try removing your MS3x relays, and your AC relay (right side of console) and see if the symptoms change.

Assuming the '87 USA greenbook is similar to your wiring, and that it's intact and non-shorted, then I think the behavior you've described follows this circuit path:
- Alternator D+ wire to dashboard 31/11 pin (big round connector)
- Through battery warning lamp to speedometer(tachymètre) connector 233/3
- To ignition switch pin 15 via R-SB wire
- Through ignition switch to pin 15l (or whatever it's called, it looks like the 2 pin 15s are connected within the switch) to BL-Y wire
- And the BL-Y wire goes to lots of other stuff that uses switched +12v.

The strange part is that unplugging the ignition switch stops the engine. Are any of the MS3x relays wired to the coil or switched BL-Y wire?

[I'm assuming that the green headlights-on lamp is for European daylight running lights, and is behaving normally.]
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Old 11-17-2018, 05:20 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobxyz View Post
Please post a diagram of your MS3x relay connections. I'm wondering if you have some weird backwards power path that provides enough voltage on the switched +12 wire after turning the ignition off to keep the LH ECU/EZK on.

Normally, the ECU senses the switched +12v voltage and energizes the two halves of the system/fuel pump relay.
I put a new fuel pump relay, and new wires all the way back to the walbro in tank.

I put a new big gauge wire from the battery to a distributor, then relays and fuses. All new. I didn't want to mess with any of the existing harness.



Here is the engine :




Now you should know that apart from all that, car works like a charm (well apart the ****ing TTV flywheel / 850R clutch combo slipping on me whenever i see boost).

I will take a picture of where i spliced in for switched +12v to trigger my main relay.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cleanflametrap View Post
At this point, I would try disconnecting the exciter circuit from the instrument panel side instead of at the alternator. Unpin the red wire from #11 and see if that changes the scenario.

What your maps don't show is D+ is used as an "engine turning" indication by both SRS and ABS in later models, and for AC delay in earlier models.
My 240 has none of these option. You sweat like a man, brake like a man an die like a man lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by bobxyz View Post
Try removing your MS3x relays, and your AC relay (right side of console) and see if the symptoms change.

Assuming the '87 USA greenbook is similar to your wiring, and that it's intact and non-shorted, then I think the behavior you've described follows this circuit path:
- Alternator D+ wire to dashboard 31/11 pin (big round connector)
- Through battery warning lamp to speedometer(tachymètre) connector 233/3
- To ignition switch pin 15 via R-SB wire
- Through ignition switch to pin 15l (or whatever it's called, it looks like the 2 pin 15s are connected within the switch) to BL-Y wire
- And the BL-Y wire goes to lots of other stuff that uses switched +12v.

The strange part is that unplugging the ignition switch stops the engine. Are any of the MS3x relays wired to the coil or switched BL-Y wire?

[I'm assuming that the green headlights-on lamp is for European daylight running lights, and is behaving normally.]
I remove the original coil for a wasted spark VW Golf one.
About the lights, i had them on because it was dark outside. But yeah it is normal.
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Old 11-17-2018, 07:35 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingkong View Post
...
My 240 has none of these option. You sweat like a man, brake like a man an die like a man lol ...
I think I'd still try disconnecting the other end to see what happens. I'll tell you why. Indeed, in North America, the 89 year did not offer ABS or SRS, and by then the AC delay took its motor-running clue from the ignition-switched battery, not from 61/D+. But the cluster still had foil between connector 31 pins 11 and 6. In your map I see 6 being shown for the Japanese market exhaust gas temperature sensor (item 152), so I'm curious what is actually pinned on the harness in your car.

The warning lamps just can't supply enough current to keep much more than a relay coil pulled in once already energized; certainly not enough to generate spark, but as Bob wonders, that is what seems to be happening. But a second path, external to the instrument panel could indeed find its way to the engine management.

Edit: I think Bob is right. I know nothing of megasquirt/spark, but I might design it so the power consuming stuff like the ignition coil gets current from unswitched battery by providing its own switch or relay, thus offloading the car's ignition switch and only sensing its voltage to turn it on. The warning lamps could provide enough current to keep that sensing on from the output of the turning alternator on D+. Easier than unpinning the red wire: Pull the 4 lamps. Maybe pull the service lamp if your car is so equipped; the drawings here don't show that one. If that's it, a simple fix might be just adding a decent load taking from switched battery, such as a courtesy lamp for example.

A common example of this symptom where the car could not be shut off at the ignition switch occurred frequently as a result of the faulty engine harnesses with crumbled insulation of 1980-87 where the red wire for D+ shorted to the blue ignition-switched battery wire inside the vinyl sheathing near the firewall plug. No reason for me to think your 89 has insulation problems, but the symptom was identical.

Your connected D+ wire should have about 1.8 volts, thereabouts, with engine stalled key on. That provides about 10 volts for the lamp test.

Last edited by cleanflametrap; 11-17-2018 at 08:05 AM..
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Old 11-17-2018, 10:22 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleanflametrap View Post
In your map I see 6 being shown for the Japanese market exhaust gas temperature sensor (item 152), so I'm curious what is actually pinned on the harness in your car.




I don't know what is the purpose of this part and i don't know if i have it in my car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleanflametrap View Post
The warning lamps just can't supply enough current to keep much more than a relay coil pulled in once already energized; certainly not enough to generate spark, but as Bob wonders, that is what seems to be happening. But a second path, external to the instrument panel could indeed find its way to the engine management.

Edit: I think Bob is right. I know nothing of megasquirt/spark, but I might design it so the power consuming stuff like the ignition coil gets current from unswitched battery by providing its own switch or relay, thus offloading the car's ignition switch and only sensing its voltage to turn it on. The warning lamps could provide enough current to keep that sensing on from the output of the turning alternator on D+. Easier than unpinning the red wire: Pull the 4 lamps. Maybe pull the service lamp if your car is so equipped; the drawings here don't show that one. If that's it, a simple fix might be just adding a decent load taking from switched battery, such as a courtesy lamp for example.
That makes perfect sense because all my relays are downstream of the main relay. So your theory could be right, as it would only require the power to keep only one relay ON in order to keep the engine running, including fuel pump, coils and injectors.

I will try to remove the bulbs right away and report back. Thank you.
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Old 11-17-2018, 11:46 AM   #46
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S Looks like a diode in a box to protect it. So current can only flow in one direction in that circuit.
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Old 11-17-2018, 12:48 PM   #47
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You guys are ****in rockstars.
I put the exciter wire back in the alt, and pulled out the battery bulb in the dash and guess what, it stalls perfectly.

This is a great temporary fix.

Now here is where I picked up my switched +12v for the MS relays. Right behind the glove box.
The pickup is the yellow clip on the red wire.





So before I go deeper in the dashboard, looking for the AC relay (dunno why I should have one since the car never had it?), do you guys know what this plug is feeding, and does it confirm your theory even more?
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Old 11-17-2018, 01:15 PM   #48
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Not sure. My off the cuff guess would be power windows or door locks?
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Old 11-17-2018, 01:33 PM   #49
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Seeing your pictures, and re-reading your posts, I misunderstood your setup. I thought you were still using the original LH ECU and Ignition setup, with a piggyback MS3x. Instead, you're using only the MS3x, with it's own wiring.

So, the current issue is that MS3x doesn't shut off when turning the key off. An example MS3x wiring diagram is shown here: http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/...re-1.5-17.html

Do your main power and relay connections match this diagram exactly? If not, please post your power/relay diagram.

From your original pictures, I noticed that the gas gauge drops, but doesn't go to zero, with key off. This implies that there is still voltage at the cluster, maybe 7volts as a guess. I don't know if running your alternator originally without a proper big ground wire could have damaged it. I'd pull the alternator and get it tested at an auto shop to see if there is some sort of leakage to the D+ wire.

You could also try pulling the battery lamp from the cluster and see if the issue goes away. You'll still get exciter voltage through the diodes of the other lamps when starting, so it should be charging, but you won't have a warning if it's not.
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Old 11-17-2018, 02:31 PM   #50
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It looks like you're tapped into power for the passenger side power windows. This is a poor place to use - from the ignition switch, it goes through a fuse and through the main power window relay. Try moving the switched +12v to MS3x connection to anything that's directly connected to the ignition switch -- see the fuse diagram on page 1 of the greenbook. (And those yellow or blue "vampire" tap blocks are awful and unreliable.)

With your power-window connection, the alternator D+ through the battery warning lamp may have just enough current to keep the power window relay energized when there are no other loads on the switched +12. This would keep MS3x energized. If you shift to reverse, to turn on the backup lights, when running with key off, does it stop?
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