Converting to E85 (ethanol fuel)

[Eargasm]

Stereophile, how much did you pay for a gallon of E85?

[suzetteebreo]

Originally Posted by frpe82

Bosch p/n 0280155742 has a listed flow of 15.8lb/hr (166cc/min) at 43.5psi (3bar) fuel pressure. In that case you would need injectors that will flow 22.4lb/hr (235cc/min). The flow number doesn´t have to be exactly dead on.

Thank you!the problem is everytime I check the fuel injector for e85 compatible 2003 c320 the site will tell me they dont have it.do you know the part number of bosch with a higher flow rate?one seller told me this:

Dear Suzette - The injectors are the OEM C320 parts.

No different injectors for E85.

Our set price is $279.50 plus $60 refundable core deposit.

Bruce Holt,
Owner-Fiveomotorsport

I dont know why he say there is no different injector for e85.yesterday i tried to run the car with 2 gallons of e85 with 93 octance gasoline.i just noticed the engine run cooler at around 80centigrade almost all the time unlike before its always on 90centigrade.is it ok if i always add a gallon or two everytime i put gas on my car?will it damage the engine?
thanks!

Originally Posted by suzetteebreo

Thank you!the problem is everytime I check the fuel injector for e85 compatible 2003 c320 the site will tell me they dont have it.do you know the part number of bosch with a higher flow rate?one seller told me this:

Dear Suzette - The injectors are the OEM C320 parts.

No different injectors for E85.

Our set price is $279.50 plus $60 refundable core deposit.

Bruce Holt,
Owner-Fiveomotorsport

I dont know why he say there is no different injector for e85.yesterday i tried to run the car with 2 gallons of e85 with 93 octance gasoline.i just noticed the engine run cooler at around 80centigrade almost all the time unlike before its always on 90centigrade.is it ok if i always add a gallon or two everytime i put gas on my car?will it damage the engine?
thanks!

The engine will feel fine even with a lot of E85 blended in actually. It is different from car to car how much they are capable of. 50/50 usually works good on most cars.

When he said that they use the same size injectors for E85, it is probably true. The E85 compatible C230 probably has a different ECU software, if there ever was an E85 version of the C230...? I didn´t know that there was such a thing.

But I can look for larger injectors that might be suitable for you. Other members reading this will probably also chime in with suggestions.

[suzetteebreo]

Originally Posted by frpe82

The engine will feel fine even with a lot of E85 blended in actually. It is different from car to car how much they are capable of. 50/50 usually works good on most cars.

When he said that they use the same size injectors for E85, it is probably true. The E85 compatible C230 probably has a different ECU software, if there ever was an E85 version of the C230...? I didn´t know that there was such a thing.

But I can look for larger injectors that might be suitable for you. Other members reading this will probably also chime in with suggestions.

Thank you for your help!
I'm looking forward for the part number.Hope my Car(Mercedes C320) can deal with 50/50 mixture for now.

How much octane will it increase if I put 91 octane gasoline with E85?Is there a computation for that?

[JohnMc]

There's probably a precise calculation, but in general terms just assume you are mixing 91 octane fuel with 105 octane fuel, and just weight the numbers by the relative amounts and average. IN any case, the added octane rating is of no importance unless you are boosting the bejesus out of the car and *need* octane higher than 91.

And adding E85 to the gas shouldn't harm the motor as long as the CEL doesn't come on. As you add E85, you gradually increase the amount of fuel that needs to be injected with each cylinder stroke. The computer will sense this via the oxygen sensor in the exhaust and automatically increase the injection amount as part of its normal feedback operation. The computer has a certain amount of leeway to increase (or decrease) the 'normal' injection amounts to acheive a proper oxygen sensor reading. If it finds it needs to go beyond that limit (whatever it is) it will assume something is mechanically wrong and light up the CEL (check engine light). At that point, the computer might stop trying to adjust the fuel mixture, and you could be in danger of going lean and causing some damage to the motor if driven hard. But as long as the CEL doesn't go on, the computer is adjusting the fuel mixture appropriately and it won't see any problem.

Putting bigger injectors on is just a way to mechanically set the system to inject more fuel, so the computer will be in the middle of its normal operating range when E85 is in the tank. The issue with that is that if you fill it up with gasoline then the computer will be running the motor too rich, and it will have to try and adjust the injection amounts down and it might set off a CEL.

True flex fuel vehicles just have a small sensor in the fuel system that can detect the relative percentage of ethanol in the fuel and the computer then automatically changes its expected injection amounts to suit. So it won't set of a CEl unless something actually does go wrong with either the injection system or the oxygen sensor.

Originally Posted by JohnMc

There's probably a precise calculation, but in general terms just assume you are mixing 91 octane fuel with 105 octane fuel, and just weight the numbers by the relative amounts and average.

The octane rating will be very close to the blend between the fuels. 50% 91 octane gas and 50% 105 octane E85 (by mass, not volume) will yield around (0.5*91) + (0.5*105) = 98 octane. Give or take 1 or 2 octane.

The octane rating will however go up a lot with very small blends like 80% gasoline and 20% E85. That will probably give you more than the theoretical (0.8*91) + (0.2*105) = 93.8 octane. Probably closer to 95 octane.

Since this is my first winter on E85, I have made some tests and observations.

The tests made here are valid on my car only and may differ from your setup.

What is true for all cars running E85 though, is:

At ~15*C ethanol starts to condensate at the metal sufaces. And at ~2-5*C it is starting to get hard to get the required fuel to enter the cylinders which results in difficulties starting the car. The temperatures mentioned here are the temperatures in the intake runners, the head and in the cylinders. The air temperature also has a to do with it, but if your engine is just a little bit warm the car will start right up.

Higher dynamic compression ratio at cranking will help with starting the car. In reality that means that an engine with a T-cam will be easier to start than a K-cam, V15 or KG2T.

Higher static compression ratio will also help the E85 fuel to ignite. In reality that means that a NA car or a +T (9.5:1 CR or higher) will be easier to start than a turbo engine (8.7:1 CR).

OK, now to the tests made on my car:

All tests are made on a cold engine.

100% E85 @ >10*C = Instant start. No difficulties at warmup.

100% E85 @ 5-10*C = Takes 2-3 tries to fire up. Some power loss at warmup.

100% E85 @ 0-5*C = Will start after repeated tries if you wait 10 seconds inbetween. Much power loss at warmup and the car wants to stall if you push it too hard.

100% E85 @ <0*C = Hehe... good luck...

90% E85 + 10% gas @ <10*C = Instant or near instant start. I have only tested this down to -12*C so far, but it will probably start as good at -20*C. Some power loss at warmup.

[suzetteebreo]

Im now mixing my gasoline with 40 to 50 %of E85 and noticed a slight increase of power.I still like to change the fuel injector so I can fully use E85.Anybody knows where can I buy an injector for my C320?Thanks!

[suzetteebreo]

Hello

I just want to ask if these MSD fuel injectors will work for my C320 conversion to run on E85?I got these informations at www.horsepowerfreaks.com yesterday.
Thank you!

Universal
Injector, 26lb/hr, 2ohm, (2/0.5A) Quad 4 #6091

Universal
Injector, 24 lb/hr, saturated #6261

Originally Posted by suzetteebreo

Hello

I just want to ask if these MSD fuel injectors will work for my C320 conversion to run on E85?I got these informations at www.horsepowerfreaks.com yesterday.
Thank you!

Universal
Injector, 26lb/hr, 2ohm, (2/0.5A) Quad 4 #6091

Universal
Injector, 24 lb/hr, saturated #6261

The flow number is fine, but...

You car uses high impedance injectors, and those are low impedance injectors.

Maybe you can solve it by installing resistors in series with the low impedance injectors...? I don´t know how your injection system works, if it fires the injectors one by one, in pairs or all at once.

[suzetteebreo]

I see.Thank you for the reply!
I got another one and the brand is Venom.Are these high impendance?

Universal
23 lbs/hr - up to 295hp (Set of 4) #184767
24 lbs/hr - up to 310hp (Set of 8) #133613

[suzetteebreo]

I bought 24lb injector bosh for 295 dollar US for set of six.I'll set it up this week.Does it bring up my cars horsepower when I put these injectors or it would be just the same other than I can use straight E85?Thanks!

Originally Posted by suzetteebreo

I bought 24lb injector bosh for 295 dollar US for set of six.I'll set it up this week.Does it bring up my cars horsepower when I put these injectors or it would be just the same other than I can use straight E85?Thanks!

It will probably raise your power a little since the ignition will never have to back off because of ping. It will also cool better and give a cleaner burn. Many things that contributes a little bit each to give you some power.

[suzetteebreo]

Originally Posted by frpe82

It will probably raise your power a little since the ignition will never have to back off because of ping. It will also cool better and give a cleaner burn. Many things that contributes a little bit each to give you some power.

Thank you for the reply!
I have a friend who's also interested on using e85 for his 2003 Mitsubishi Lancer OZ and the stock fuel injector is 240cc.Do you think he still has to change his fuel injectors to a bigger size or 240cc will do E85?

Thank you!Now my car is E85 100% running now...!

[suzetteebreo]

Thank you!Now my car is E85 100% running now...!

[mobetta]

wow- great write up.
So- I'm game. the E85 around me is generally $.40-.60 less than regular unleaded gasoline(RUG).and the farmer down the road gets paid way better for his corn if i burn this instead of OIL. Here in MN they are building new ethanol plants all over. farmer co-ops, mostly.

the cold start issue may be resolved by installing an old webasto I have, if it burns ethanol OK. or mix RUG with E-85. or switch injectors and burn RUG all winter.

Anyhow- I have a 93 945 with regina. any ideas on where to find/ what vehicles use a lrger injector for this application? If I could find some at the pick and pull, it would only be a $20 bill.

thanks,Mo

Originally Posted by mobetta

wow- great write up.
So- I'm game. the E85 around me is generally $.40-.60 less than regular unleaded gasoline(RUG).and the farmer down the road gets paid way better for his corn if i burn this instead of OIL. Here in MN they are building new ethanol plants all over. farmer co-ops, mostly.

the cold start issue may be resolved by installing an old webasto I have, if it burns ethanol OK. or mix RUG with E-85. or switch injectors and burn RUG all winter.

Anyhow- I have a 93 945 with regina. any ideas on where to find/ what vehicles use a lrger injector for this application? If I could find some at the pick and pull, it would only be a $20 bill.

thanks,Mo

What part number do your current injectors have?

Get some that are 35-40% larger.

Maybe the Turbo injectors are suitable...?

[mobetta]

Ok, the wife's home, and I checked out the injectors. they are blue tops? and the number is 1389563 which is molded into the blue top. also, 182H is stamped on another side, with a heated brand type stamp, it appears.

Is there an online database to research these injectors?
would they push enough fuel with an FPR, or should I be looking for different Injectors?


Is there any major differences that I should be aware of to convert this over, being a NA regina car?

I would love to burn ethanol, as our other car is running used cooking oil, this would make our cars pretty much independent of foreign oil.

thnks,mo

I can´t find anything on that number.

Doesn´t the injector have a number that looks like this: 0 280 150 xxx?

[mobetta]

well, I couldnt see any other no's. heres some pics,though. maybe I am not looking in the right place.

[IMG]









[/IMG]

Ok... so you have Siemens injectors...

I expected Bosch.

After much digging on the internet I found the right specifications for those injectors.

1389563
14.2 ohm
192cc/min @ 3bar

To run E85 you need 42% bigger injectors to be exact. That means that you should look for 273cc/min injectors. The turbo injectors should be ~296cc/min if you use them together with a 2.5bar FPR, but that sounds like it may be too much flow.

I don´t have any suggestions at this time, but the size you should be aiming for is 273cc/min.

[CTP_hookz]

why cant we have e85 on the east coast. id so be in it,

balls deep

[Ruben]

@frpe82, I'm aiming for 300+ hp and planning a E85 conversion, how big should my injectors be? I'd like some reserve because future performance goals......

[JW240]

Originally Posted by Ruben

@frpe82, I'm aiming for 300+ hp and planning a E85 conversion, how big should my injectors be? I'd like some reserve because future performance goals......

you know they are going to sell E85 in Aachen? The Stawag opens its E85 station in the next couple of months
(probably you know since you are doing the conversion )

Originally Posted by Ruben

@frpe82, I'm aiming for 300+ hp and planning a E85 conversion, how big should my injectors be? I'd like some reserve because future performance goals......

600cc/min should be sufficient, but some 788cc/min injectors will give you some headroom.