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Old 05-14-2007, 06:32 PM   #126
pisco
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I've been researching the steps involved in converting my 164 to e85 for a while now. I've got 2 SU carbs on there and from what I've been able to find these should be able to run E85with 30% larger jets and some needle massaging. I have also found B18-B20 & B30 distributors with an ethanol timing curve. I just have not seen it put into practice. Does anyone know of any carbbed Volvos running on e85? I know It can't be as easy as just throwing in new jets but if it is...
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Old 05-15-2007, 02:41 PM   #127
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I know It can't be as easy as just throwing in new jets but if it is...
It is that easy. Trust me.

I know of some carbed E85 Volvo´s, but I have not seen them in person. Only seen them on another forum (which crashed a while back).

It would be great if you could get a distributor with an ethanol timing curve. That will definitely help the power up a whole lot, and the milage will be conciderably better too.
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Old 05-15-2007, 06:16 PM   #128
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This sounds great at first blush, I would love to try it. Unfortunately, it's just not possible to do in southern California. The *ONLY* gas station in southern California that offers E85 is Pearson Ford in El Cajon/San Diego (about 100 miles away from me, I'm near Disneyland in Orange County). Currently, E85 is $3.11/cash or $3.18 if you use a credit/debit card per gallon.

If I'm gonna take a ~25% hit on fuel economy, that means E85 would need to cost $2.77 to equal the money-per-gallon ratio of Premium 91 (which is currently at $3.69 near my house). It would only become a benefit if it cost LESS than $2.77/gal, in terms of money-per-mile.

But, it ends up costing more than Premium 91 octane. Not to mention, E85 simply isn't available yet. So what's the point?

The only way it would be "cheaper" would be if you ran 100 octane all of the time. Here's my comparison...based on local information, today...

VP Racing Unleaded, 100 octane
$5.89/gal
20 gal tank = $117.80 per tank
Roughly 18mpg (in my 940)
Roughly 360 miles per tank
Roughly 32.7 cents per mile

E85 Ethanol
$3.18/gal (credit/debit...$.07 discount if you pay cash)
20 gal tank = $63.60 per tank
Roughly 13.5 mpg (25% reduction from gasoline)
Roughly 270 miles per tank
Roughly 23.6 cents per mile

Gasoline, 91 oct.
$3.69/gal
20 gal tank = $73.80
Roughly 18 mpg
Roughly 360 miles per tank
Roughly 20.5 cents per mile

...I'm thinking maybe in a year or two, when E85 is commonly available, it might be a viable option. But for a So Cal resident, E85 is about as practical as commuting in a Saturn EV-1 and praying for a charging station every 50 miles.
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Old 05-15-2007, 06:24 PM   #129
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[QUOTE=L8 APEKS;1223406]This sounds great at first blush, I would love to try it. Unfortunately, it's just not possible to do in southern California. The *ONLY* gas station in southern California that offers E85 is Pearson Ford in El Cajon/San Diego (about 100 miles away from me, I'm near Disneyland in Orange County). Currently, E85 is $3.11/cash or $3.18 if you use a credit/debit card per gallon.

That very fuel station is 2 blocks from me. That's it, I'm converting.
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Old 05-16-2007, 09:00 AM   #130
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my car doesn't want to start properly on E85 now... FFS. It isn't cold here, cars runs good (except for a slight piston slapping noise or something on low rpm clutch slipping?? thats since the E85 and a few 100 km driven with greentops)..

any advice on spark plugs? what color should they read?
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Old 05-16-2007, 06:56 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by L8 APEKS View Post
This sounds great at first blush, I would love to try it. Unfortunately, it's just not possible to do in southern California. The *ONLY* gas station in southern California that offers E85 is Pearson Ford in El Cajon/San Diego (about 100 miles away from me, I'm near Disneyland in Orange County).
Too bad since Cali really strives to be the state with the best environmental friendly cars/equipment/etc.

We have E85 at more than 1/2 of all the gas stations around here... (sorry, I had to tease you a little...)

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The only way it would be "cheaper" would be if you ran 100 octane all of the time.
E85 is 105 octane (103-104 at some times), and it cools better too so the benefits are great.

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my car doesn't want to start properly on E85 now... FFS. It isn't cold here, cars runs good (except for a slight piston slapping noise or something on low rpm clutch slipping?? thats since the E85 and a few 100 km driven with greentops)..
Did that just start to happen suddenly?

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any advice on spark plugs? what color should they read?
Reading spark plugs when running E85 is impossible (or near impossible). They will have almost the same color all the time. They will only shift between light brown and light brown/gray.

Since you are running E85 in an NA car, the sparkplugs to use for E85 is the stock heat range for your car. For turbo use, and when driven hard, you usually only need to swap to one step colder plugs.
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Old 05-16-2007, 07:58 PM   #132
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Has anyone touched on the fact that Ethanol is harder to burn than gasoline? I've heard it has a higher flash point. What effects would this have on performance?
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Old 05-16-2007, 09:28 PM   #133
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Has anyone touched on the fact that Ethanol is harder to burn than gasoline? I've heard it has a higher flash point. What effects would this have on performance?
I believe Fred said it's something around 104 octane, so it's great to prevent knocking.
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:16 AM   #134
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I believe Fred said it's something around 104 octane, so it's great to prevent knocking.
Flash point has nothing to do with octane rating...E85 is actually more resistant to ignition than gasoline, so it takes more energy to make E85 burn. In other words...gas burns easier. I'm just not sure what this means from a performance standpoint.

Imagine watering-down your gas a little...that's how E85 burns. Maybe more spark energy is even more crucial with E85 to help offset this? Any ideas on this?
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Old 05-17-2007, 05:56 PM   #135
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Flash point has nothing to do with octane rating...E85 is actually more resistant to ignition than gasoline, so it takes more energy to make E85 burn. In other words...gas burns easier. I'm just not sure what this means from a performance standpoint.

Imagine watering-down your gas a little...that's how E85 burns. Maybe more spark energy is even more crucial with E85 to help offset this? Any ideas on this?
It is only marginally harder to light off a mixture with E85/air than gas/air under compression. It is nothing I would worry about.

It is all about temperature and pressure. In the combustion chamber the conditions for combustion of E85 are much better than in free air.

A problem that in theory will be bigger than that, is the fact that E85 runs at a lower AFR, and that it should be harder to light the mixture because of that. In the real world this will never pose a problem unless your ignition system is in very bad condition.
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Old 05-17-2007, 08:38 PM   #136
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Friggin' "Caul - E - Foe - Nee - Uh" (Arnold voice). Too many republicans getting rich off dino gas so nobody wants to put an E85 pump in.

I would love to try it, but I can't buy E85 within a 100 mile radius of Orange County. :( Thanks Fred. I'm jealous you have so much green gas over there!
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Old 05-17-2007, 10:27 PM   #137
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I guess I took 'harder to burn' just to mean octane which would have been 'harder to predetonate' ...or maybe I was just spewing words, I don't know, lol.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:35 PM   #138
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any advice on spark plugs? what color should they read?
NGK BP6ES if you have resistor cables, else BPR6ES.
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Old 05-18-2007, 06:12 PM   #139
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NGK BP6ES if you have resistor cables, else BPR6ES.
iirc i swapped in BP6ES, i read that you had good results with them. luckily i had a slightly used set of them
i'll test the cold start this morning...
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Old 05-23-2007, 07:16 PM   #140
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Anyone using MS with E85 blends and a fuel composition sensor? I really want to try that.
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Old 05-26-2007, 04:30 PM   #141
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No. The narrow band lambda sensor doesn´t have a clue about AFR, only lambda.

The ECU will tune to lambda=1 on idle regardless of the fuel used, and lambda=1 for E85 is 9.8.
I'm sorry. I know this has been covered and I'm not trying to be difficult here(I appreciate the write up!), but I don't understand how the O2 sensor can compensate. The ecu doesn't tune for lambda, it tunes for 450mv. O2 sensors use the difference in outside air and exhaust air oxygen content and output a signal voltage based on that. Oxygen content increases with AFR. It does not spike in any way at lambda. If the amount of flow remains the same, and the fuel content increases, the O2 content will decrease. The ECU will not change it's desired reading of 450mv. Maybe I'm missing something here. I have to confess I didn't read all 6 pages. Thanks in advance for any clarification you can give me.
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Old 05-26-2007, 11:41 PM   #142
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I'm sorry. I know this has been covered and I'm not trying to be difficult here(I appreciate the write up!), but I don't understand how the O2 sensor can compensate. The ecu doesn't tune for lambda, it tunes for 450mv. O2 sensors use the difference in outside air and exhaust air oxygen content and output a signal voltage based on that. Oxygen content increases with AFR. It does not spike in any way at lambda. If the amount of flow remains the same, and the fuel content increases, the O2 content will decrease. The ECU will not change it's desired reading of 450mv. Maybe I'm missing something here. I have to confess I didn't read all 6 pages. Thanks in advance for any clarification you can give me.
The swing back and forth at around 450mV is Lambda=1 regardless of fuel used. The O2-sensor doesn´t read differently just because E85 is used.

So to conclude: 450mV is Lambda=1, and 450mV is what the ECU is trying to achieve all the time at idle and cruise.
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Old 05-27-2007, 01:42 PM   #143
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The assertion of a Lambda value requires not just knowledge of oxygen but also of the fuel. Otherwise it would not occur at a specific afr for a specific fuel. Oxygen sensors do not measure fuel, only oxygen. Therefore O2 sensors don't detect or output any reference to lambda. These associations are done by math. If the air/fuel ratio changes, the oxygen level changes, and the O2 sensor voltage output changes, and the ecu will tune back to that same amount of oxygen(450mv). You will be left with the same afr as with gasoline, in which case you will be too lean.

Can anyone point me in the direction of any tech info that says that narrowband O2 sensors directly read and output lambda? Such a sensor would have to ignore oxygen level readings and measure fuel to compensate for what lambda is on said fuel, if the output voltages remain the same.
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Old 05-27-2007, 05:01 PM   #144
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The assertion of a Lambda value requires not just knowledge of oxygen but also of the fuel. Otherwise it would not occur at a specific afr for a specific fuel. Oxygen sensors do not measure fuel, only oxygen. Therefore O2 sensors don't detect or output any reference to lambda. These associations are done by math. If the air/fuel ratio changes, the oxygen level changes, and the O2 sensor voltage output changes, and the ecu will tune back to that same amount of oxygen(450mv). You will be left with the same afr as with gasoline, in which case you will be too lean.

Can anyone point me in the direction of any tech info that says that narrowband O2 sensors directly read and output lambda? Such a sensor would have to ignore oxygen level readings and measure fuel to compensate for what lambda is on said fuel, if the output voltages remain the same.
Lambda=1 for gasoline: Air/fuel ratio of 14.7:1
Lambda=1 for E85: Air/fuel ratio of 9.765:1

The O2-sensor sees the equivalence ratio and outputs the same voltage when the mixture is at Lambda=1 regardless of fuel.

Please read up on how O2-sensors work.

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Old 05-27-2007, 06:25 PM   #145
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As I posted, please point me towards technical documents that say that an o2 sensor sees an "equivalence ratio", and not just oxygen content. I googled for a couple hours trying to prove myself wrong before posting. I'm not trying to clutter this thread, but please show me some technical O2 sensor documents so I can understand how. Or you could explain how an O2 sensor measures anything more than oxygen. Again, not trying to be argumentative(it's my nature), I just want a "how" instead of "O2 sensors read lambda".
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Old 05-27-2007, 06:32 PM   #146
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http://www.motorlexikon.de/

Die Spannung, die über eine ZrO2-Schicht abgegriffen wird, hängt nur von der Differenz der Sauerstoffpartialdrücke auf beiden Seiten der Schicht ab.
=
the voltage, measured over a ZrO2 layer, is only dependant of the difference of partial pressure of oxigen of both sides of the layer.

maybe that helps?
or walk in a uni-bookstore and find a book about engine management? not everything is easy to find on the net...
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Old 05-27-2007, 06:39 PM   #147
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As I posted, please point me towards technical documents that say that an o2 sensor sees an "equivalence ratio", and not just oxygen content. I googled for a couple hours trying to prove myself wrong before posting. I'm not trying to clutter this thread, but please show me some technical O2 sensor documents so I can understand how. Or you could explain how an O2 sensor measures anything more than oxygen. Again, not trying to be argumentative(it's my nature), I just want a "how" instead of "O2 sensors read lambda".
Yes, the O2-sensor reads the oxygen content in the exhaust stream. When the fuel has a complete/correct burn, it will be at the same equivalence ratio as any other fuel. Burn gasoline at an AFR of 14.7 and it will have an equivalence ratio of 1. Burn E85 at an AFR of 9.765 and it will have an equivalence ratio of 1.

The oxygen sensor doesn´t care about the fuel used, only the oxygen content. And the oxygen content is the same in all fuels exhaust gasses at a complete burn.
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Old 05-27-2007, 07:21 PM   #148
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So an engine running a stoichiometric mixture on e85, and an identical engine running stoichiometric on gasoline, will(ideally) have the same % of oxygen in the exhaust despite drasticly different air/fuel ratios?
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Old 05-28-2007, 02:40 PM   #149
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maybe this will help a little bit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio
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Old 05-28-2007, 05:04 PM   #150
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If someone can answer my above question "yes", then it makes sense and we can move on. But if they wouldn't have the exact same O2 % in the exhaust, then the reading will not be the same at stoich for the different fuels. I have read the wikipedia links. The only places that say that O2 sensor compensate to lambda are in forums and on wikipedia(you can put whatever you want on wikipedia without proving it to be true). I have taken classes at automotive school on ecu diagnostics, 5 gas fundamentals, and so forth as well as countless hours of internet research. I know basic operation. I seem argumentative, but I really just want complete clarification supported by explanations from credible sources. The only way that that could be right is if both engines in my example would have the exact same % of oxygen in the exhaust in spite of different AFR's. So, is this the case?
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