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Old 12-05-2018, 05:56 PM   #26
vintagewrench
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Nice to see such a well thought out and beautifully constructed P1800 project car here on the fourm. Looking forward to seeing the finished car and learning all about how it performs.
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:29 PM   #27
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Old 12-14-2018, 01:18 AM   #28
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Default Mechanical components: Part 1

Thanks vintagewrench.

Here is the last of the catch up posts to bring the forum current with the website.

The most important initial mechanical decision I had to make in the build of this car was the electric drive train. Many hobbyists and electric drag race teams use DC electric motors because they are cheaper; however, ALL OEM automotive manufacturers use AC electric motors because they are more reliable and require less maintenance. The motor I am using is the P115R dual core electric motor from AM Racing. This is an oil-cooled 3 phase AC electric motor. I am controlling the motor using two liquid-cooled Rinehart PM250DZ 3-phase controllers. This is the same motor and controller configuration used in the 220 mph Genovation GXE GrandSport Corvette (https://genovationcars.com/) and was the original motor used in the Rimac One electric hypercar prototype (http://www.rimac-automobili.com/en/). The combination is capable of sending 600 Amps at 350-800V to each motor core, giving a lot of flexibility in design. The power is limited only by the battery pack chosen. I chose this drive train for its durability, performance and ability to adjust HP by increasing the voltage in subsequent evolutions once solid state battery modules become available to the conversion market (maybe 5-10 years out), without having to change hardware.

Motor


Controller


In order to power everything in the initial build of the car I am using 400V liquid-cooled battery modules salvaged from a 2016 Tesla model S P90D, which at the time of its accident had only driven 6000 miles. With this configuration the motor is estimated to generate ~810 Nm (~600 ft*lb) of torque from 0-5000 rpm and peak output of ~400 kW (~600 HP). I will be dyno-testing the car for actual numbers at the wheels once the car is completed. The downside, is that at 55 lbs a piece these things are heavy and I need to fit 16 of them into the relatively tiny 1800.

Tesla P90D modules


To transfer this power to the rear Dana60, I had Liberty Gears improve a Tremec TKO600 5-speed manual transmission through synchronizing, cryogenically and surface enhancement processing, shot peening and thermal stabilization. This increases the strength and durable operation of the gears at the higher rpm that the electric motor can generate. There is a QuickTime LS1 clutch bellhousing between the transmission and a custom machined aluminum adapter plate, which matches up the bellhousing to the bolt pattern on the motor. Although many electric vehicles do not utilize a transmission, I wanted the versatility of maximum lower gear torque with high top end speed, and I wasn’t sure what overall gear ratio would work best for my diverse applications. Including the manual gives me the flexibility to change my final gear ratio to suit a given track condition. However, I fully expect most driving will be conducted in a single gear, more or less a "set it and forget it".




Even though the majority of the time the car will be driven in a single gear, I also incorporated MasterShift paddle shift controls for the TKO600 for several reasons. First, to allow for better control on track and a cleaner cabin layout. Second, I needed room for cup holders and putting those behind the steering wheel would be awkward. Third, they are drop-dead gorgeous and concept supercars have paddle shifters, duh .

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Old 12-14-2018, 05:52 AM   #29
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I love it.

What do those parts (motor, controller and batteries) cost if you don't mind me asking?
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Old 12-14-2018, 08:36 AM   #30
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I love it.

What do those parts (motor, controller and batteries) cost if you don't mind me asking?
Probably a couple of dozens of mint 240s...

This build is amazing. Can't wait to read more!
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Old 12-14-2018, 09:12 PM   #31
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Wow, very impressive build!
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Old 12-15-2018, 01:24 AM   #32
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I love the build. Are the guys at StealthEV going to be doing the calibration? I’m definitely interested to see your pack configuration come together. I really like what Stealth EV and Icon did with theirs Merc, but weight management for a pro-touring or road car is a whole different story.
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Old 12-16-2018, 11:13 PM   #33
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Thanks everyone for the support and comments. This is not a cheap build, but then most passion projects aren't. That said, I do expect to complete the car with less out of pocket than it would cost to purchase the new Tesla roadster, yet I'll be done at least a year earlier and will have a one of a kind car that I was fortunate enough to design myself. And, yes you can buy a lot of 240s for the cost of a new Tesla roadster, and a proper turbobrick can be one heck of a great car. There are also many ways to achieve high performance at a lower cost using traditional ICE technologies. I simply wanted to go another way.
The only point of this build was to pursue a personal passion and see if I could push the boundaries of traditional hotrodding to achieve something even marginally close to electric supercar standards. I will grind no axes and simply wish everyone with a similar passion for their builds the best of success. Time will still tell if I can make mine a reality, but I'm a lot closer today than I was when I started 4 years ago, and I'm very excited to share it with you.

CW, yes Matt at StealthEV is conducting the calibration and final tuning of the high voltage electronics. The car is currently in his shop being worked as we speak. I agree, final weight and its distribution are my biggest concerns and I won't really know how well the car can do until I can wring it out. My best current estimate is that I'll end up with final weight of 3500-3800 lbs, and a front to back distribution of 40/60. This is obviously a lot more than the ~2450 lbs of a stock 1800, hence the need for a stronger chassis. However, this weight and balance is very similar to an new Audi R8 RWS, compared to which I'll have slightly lower HP but more torque. I'm hoping that will compensate. The ICON Merc in contrast started out 1000 lbs heavier than the 1800 before conversion, has a higher cg, lower output controllers (less HP) and direct drive with a lower final ratio (3.73 vs my 4.11). It is going to be interesting, but you can believe that as soon as battery packs with better power-to-weight are available, I'll be swapping out the heavy Tesla modules for an upgrade.

All the best.

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Old 12-17-2018, 10:38 AM   #34
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Interesting. I thought that icon was using the new rm300 inverters. Either way, that motor is nuts! I love testing them and seeing what people put them into is fascinating.
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Old 12-18-2018, 09:04 PM   #35
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Matt told me he used the Rinehardt PM150s on the Merc build. They put out 150 KW each. My PM250s put out 250 KW each and can handle a much higher constant Amp load. However, we are both limited ultimately by what the battery packs can deliver and the system will de-tune when the battery pack get's too hot before controller limits are reached. Fortunately my pack came out of a newer P90D, which has a better fuse system than some of the earlier P85 packs and can handle short bursts at up to 1500 amps. The P250DXs will pull a max of 1200 amps, so I should be able to pull max power for longer. Since we are both using 400V packs the real advantage of the PM250s over the PM150s is durability at high loads and how long you can maintain peak power. I'm still hoping I can jump to higher voltage (650-800) once higher density packs are available and the charging infrastructure is in place. Porsche and Audi are sharing an 800V platform in their EVs, so charging stations will be upgraded to handle it over the next few years.

Sorry if I'm getting into the minutiae of the electrical side of things.
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Old 12-19-2018, 12:41 AM   #36
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No worries. I’m the guy at AMR that gets to build these things. It’s really fun seeing one of these make it into a Volvo. Really blends my passions. Keep it up.
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Old 12-20-2018, 04:49 PM   #37
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Oh, that's great. I'll definitely have to stop by after the car is complete. BTW, when are you guys going to put the motors back up for sale outside B2B? I noticed the products page is no longer linked from the main website.
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Old 12-20-2018, 07:13 PM   #38
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Right now I’m not certain, there’s some prototypes of the next generation in early stage of manufacturing. I’ll be seeing the parts mid January but I have some special projects that I need to complete first. But the new year is going to be busy! Lots of exciting stuff so 1st quarter will be full of development for the next generations of universal application stuff and some crazy dev projects. I wish I could share more.
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Old 12-21-2018, 01:30 PM   #39
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Sounds exciting. Have you guys ever thought of engineering a two speed wide-ratio electric shift transmission or high torque capable CVT to match with the electric motors. IMO, that is still a desirable missing component in the performance conversion market. If we had something like a GearVendors overdrive but with wider ratio of 1:0.5 to 1:0.3, it would open up the performance of using single core motors by a large margin, particularly if they could be run in pairs to make a three speed if needed. We could then run taller rear ratios for extra grunt without sacrificing top end speed and reasonable highway cruising rpm.
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Old 12-22-2018, 12:52 PM   #40
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This is something that I’ve looked into. There are 2 speed rear axles available off the shelf but as you know these make well enough power and have the rev capability to overcome the general limitations of a single reduction. A 4.2:1 reduction has the ability to push a 3200lb car with a 25” tire to nearly 180 mph. Utilizing 4 single reduction gearbox’s and 4 115p motors can easily net over 1300hp and over 4000ftlbs. And if you look at Formula E, they’re running 6:1 gearing and 10k rev limits netting 160+ top speed and 40-100 mph gaps in pretty dang short order. For me the abuse that a single reduction can take is way worth the trade off of limits over a complex gear train that has wear items and significant losses.

At these power levels, aero is your biggest limitation.
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Old 12-22-2018, 03:25 PM   #41
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AMR has done two speed boxes but we haven’t done any universal type or consumer level stuff. I don’t see it in the immediate future but it may not be too much further off.
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Old 12-23-2018, 01:43 PM   #42
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I really like the one motor per wheel designs and the more sophisticated traction options it allows. I'm hoping Rivian can follow through with their R1T truck in two years with this design. They are even promising "Tank turns" off road, by allowing the wheels on opposite sides of the vehicle to turn in opposing directions, and Rimac's torque vectoring on the track is insane. However, setting up a system like that for the EvolvProject was a level of complexity beyond me, and not available with off the shelf components. I'm just thinking in the future with lighter battery pack options we could get into some reasonably light weight conversions using a smaller single motor and 400V pack.
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Old 12-23-2018, 02:21 PM   #43
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BTW, have you run any power and torque simulations for the AMR dual core P115 using the Rinehart 250DZ and 360-400V instead of 650V? I've trying to guesstimate at what RPM the torque will have dropped to 70% of max, as this will be the best shift point. Extrapolating from curves that EVDrive has posted (which I think they got from you), I'm guessing between 5-6K.
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Old 12-24-2018, 11:27 AM   #44
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Off the top of my head, that sounds right. I would set yourself up on a rolling road dyno. Lock that transmission in 4th and test it in the car to get the best accuracy. The particular inverter setup will have a bit of effect on where and when this occurs.

All of my in house testing is done with dual pm250s and a 320v nominal pack generally running 380-340v. For the dual stacks of that generation, my development has been limited and test/tune processes were already established.
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Old 12-25-2018, 11:26 PM   #45
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Thanks. That is the plan. One nice thing about Meridian, ID is that there is a nice dyno shop in town due to all the drag racing at Firebird. As soon as I get the car back from California and shake down the suspension settings the next stop is the dyno for some hard numbers.
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Old 02-20-2019, 02:40 PM   #46
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Any updates?
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Old 02-21-2019, 08:56 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by TheEvolvProject View Post
Have you guys ever thought of engineering a two speed wide-ratio electric shift transmission or high torque capable CVT to match with the electric motors.
When I first read that you were fitting a TKO behind the motor my first thought was that with the flexibility of the motor and all the torque available at zero rpm this was a perfect application for a "high tech" Powerglide. They can easily be built to manage your torque and power levels. A lockup torque converter could provide an extra measure of flexibility. And, of course, the shifter mechanism becomes much less complex and much more reliable. Something about "The Glide" that seems in keeping with the build. Yeah - The Electric Glide. Richmond makes a 2-speed manual....

Not aware of a CVT anywhere that'll manage the torque, especially with traction. In fact, seems most of them are barely capable of managing the OEM levels of torque they have to deal with, at least over the long term.

Extra chuckle - again, thinking of how small the need for more torque multiplication is with this motor/application - I'd put the shifter paddles in. But I wouldn't have 'em connected to any sort of transmission. I'd have 'em controlling some sort of audio file that plays through the car's speakers so you could "pipe in" the sound of an F1 car going through the gears as you hit the paddles. You know, for your own entertainment. Great way to screw with your passenger before popping the hood.
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:36 PM   #48
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Thanks for the post. I did consider using a powerglide early in the design phase. These have been used behind brushed traction motors in EVs with some success. EVWest in San Diego was selling them for a while with an integrated oil pump kit, which is required maintain pressure in the powerglide when attached to an electric motor. However, when I talked to Matt Hauber about using this option (he was a cofounder of EVWest and helped develop the kit, now runs StealthEV) he cautioned that in this application they were not as reliable as a manual. I also like the flexibility of changing my final ratio to best match a given track or road condition. I do fully expect that I won't be shifting gears much while driving in competition, as one speed should be sufficient when tailored to the given road/track.
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Old 06-17-2019, 02:01 PM   #49
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Default Status Update: finally making progress again

Hi all. It has been nearly 7 months since I last made any real progress on the car. A large part of that was due to relocation of StealthEV to a larger facility and personnel turn-over on their end that slowed everything down. We've spent that time mainly fine-tuning the design and layout of all the electronic components necessary for the high-voltage drive train. There are now some updates on the Integration page of the website (www.evolvproject.com). The most significant was figuring out battery module configuration to actually get 4 of the Tesla modules above the motor in the engine bay and still leave room on top for both RMS controllers. The lower shelf behind the seats will now be used to house the 3 Brusa chargers and only 3 modules will need to be located beneath the trunk floor behind the rear differential. This will result in a much better weight distribution around 55:45, rear:front.




Enclosures for both the front 4 pack and 4 rear 3 pack module configurations are finishing fabrication this week and once we finish making the brackets to hold the boxes, we should be able to start assembly. The BMS controllers have been added to each of the 16 modules and are ready to be loaded.

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Old 06-21-2019, 04:06 PM   #50
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so whats the DC bus voltage?
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