Andrewhans 7875/4.8/MS3 Gold Sedan

[Pillow]

Good luck man!!! Keep us posted on the low timeslips Get those slicks to hook on the warm tarmac.

[740atl]

Originally Posted by Andrewhans

Got the final piece of the fuel pump puzzle. Going to have the MS3 GoldBox trigger this at 4-5psi to boost voltage to the pump. Going to turn the voltage back down to very slightly above normal. I want 13.9-14v at hot idle. When triggered this will boost voltage to 17.5v at the pump only. We will see how much it shorten pump life but this is the go to method for some other chassis that have a pump that is near the edge of being not enough.

12v in from Batt on fused(40a) red, good chassis ground on black, direct pass through when off on orange and when triggered orange outputs 17 ish volts. Ground trigger is Brown. DC-DC converter with passthrough.

Andrew what does the fuel pump booster do? Does the increased voltage correlate with increased pump output?

btw, lovin the build.

[volvo?]

Originally Posted by 740atl

Andrew what does the fuel pump booster do? Does the increased voltage correlate with increased pump output?

btw, lovin the build.

That is what it does.

[740atl]

Originally Posted by volvo?

That is what it does.

I might be answering my own question again, but if the pump output is increased at the same kPa/RPM, then that is something that would require less VE at the same kPa/RPM which means a bit of retuning.

Is the voltage output of the multipler consistent?

Was the choice to go with the pump multiplier instead of larger injectors?

[linuxman51]

moar volts is betters. if the ecu can handle it, coils hit harder, injectors work faster, pumps pump more.

[Andrewhans]

Originally Posted by 740atl

I might be answering my own question again, but if the pump output is increased at the same kPa/RPM, then that is something that would require less VE at the same kPa/RPM which means a bit of retuning.

Is the voltage output of the multipler consistent?

Was the choice to go with the pump multiplier instead of larger injectors?

Cheaper to get this booster($100 used of CL)

Voltage output is constant 17.5v independent of input voltage(to a point obviously) when activated.

Im triggering the booster prior to when I was loosing fuel pressure before. So that area is fine but the part of the map that was overcompensating on the pulse width to bring my AFR back in line is now overly rich.

Back to the updates!

New best time! 7.5 @103


Left the line at idle and floored it right away. Viewing the datalog I seem to be lifting as boost comes up in first gear. Not sure why though I dont remember lifting at all...

This was at 12psi 13ish deg timing on e85. Going to turn the boost up to 15psi and make a few more passes. Got some great datalogs too of the Boost-A-Pump working great prefect fuel pressure the entire pass.

My wife took a few videos for me. Had a blast last night.






Overall great time.

[Andrewhans]

Originally Posted by linuxman51

moar volts is betters. if the ecu can handle it, coils hit harder, injectors work faster, pumps pump more.

Couldnt agree more. I had the system voltage overboosted too much. 15.4v cold and 14.8v hot. I felt like eventually I was going to cook the battery so I lowered the voltage. Now its around 14.8v cold and 14.4 hot which is perfect IMO. Under full song it drops to 13.8v and I only have a .3v drop from batt to fuel pump relay output post and 17v output of the actual boost a pump.

The walbro 450 is an animal when fed the proper voltage.

[Pillow]

That last video coming around the Mustang was beautiful!

Sorry if I missed it, but why not leave harder? What stall converter RPM? Traction? trans brake? And I say that because you all pulling all of them on the back half. Once the launch is perfected, you are going to make some people cry looking at your taillights!

[cosbySweater]

Did you verify the timing???

[Andrewhans]

Originally Posted by Pillow

That last video coming around the Mustang was beautiful!

Sorry if I missed it, but why not leave harder? What stall converter RPM? Traction? trans brake? And I say that because you all pulling all of them on the back half. Once the launch is perfected, you are going to make some people cry looking at your taillights!

Working up on the boost off the line. Also I just got to the point where I can floor it in first and not spin the tires. Now that I have that down Im gonna turn the boost up and try and brake boost a bit to leave a bit harder. No transbrake, unsure on stall number. Its a custom spec'd unit from PTC, works amazing.

Once the launch is dialed, its gonna be mean at the track.

Originally Posted by cosbySweater

Did you verify the timing???

Not yet. I need too, but I've been too lazy. I need to find the right kind of timing light too. I have a fixed one the just flashes, no dialback or readout.

[Pillow]

[QUOTE=Andrewhans;5822600]Once the launch is dialed, its gonna be mean at the track./QUOTE]

Yes it will!

[Andrewhans]

Got the 2 step working. First video is 2500rpm and -2 timing second video is 3800rpm and -4 deg timing.




Didnt really do mich better. Im traction limited. The open diff is ****ing me on the burnout and at the 60'. I dont want to weld it bc I drive it on the street quite a bit and don't want it to be miserable and destroy the bushing back there any more than they are lol.

[Andrewhans]

Had someone ask about the fuel filter mounting. Its nothing special, just some zipties near the factory fuel tray.

[cosbySweater]

That looks so gross man. Haha

[Andrewhans]

Originally Posted by cosbySweater

That looks so gross man. Haha

Lol, pretty doesnt equal fast. It's secure and with how big that filter is, I dont ever see needing to change it out. Ill increase my fuel line size before its dirty at all. I will cut it open when the time comes to change it.

I was trying to find some solid data on a voltage boosted(over 13.5v) walbro 450 and could find nothing on the internet. So I went to the source.

Sent TI Automotive an email asking about data and charts. I received this in return.


He did mention to expect shortened pump life when running these higher voltages. My voltage booster when triggered outputs around 17.5v with 40amps available current at that voltage.

These walbro 450 pumps are monsters when fed the power they need. Zero fuel pressure issues with e85, deka 80's, 15psi, 6800rpm with a 7875 on a 4.8. Should be in the 530-550whp area on a Mustang dyno. Duty cycle tops out at 83% at 15psi which is far better than the 104% I was seeing at 12psi before.

At 73psi of rail pressure the flow increase from 13.5v to 17v is around a 40% increase.

[BillyMaysHere]

Plz get a timing light and dial that in.

[cosbySweater]

Originally Posted by BillyMaysHere

Plz get a timing light and dial that in.

Just set in 6 degrees of offset. Both engines had that with the Elgin cam I don't even use a fuel filter with the 450 in the tank. Lol

[Andrewhans]

Originally Posted by cosbySweater

Just set in 6 degrees of offset. Both engines had that with the Elgin cam I don't even use a fuel filter with the 450 in the tank. Lol

So here's my question. 6 degrees of offset means that your timing map was in reality 6 deg more aggressive than your timing map showed or 6 degrees less aggressive.

I ask because at 14-15psi it feels VERY strong for only commanding 11-12 deg of timing under boost.

[77volvo245]

How many times have you changed your center bearing support rubber on you driveline?

[740atl]

Originally Posted by Andrewhans

Lol, pretty doesnt equal fast. It's secure and with how big that filter is, I dont ever see needing to change it out. Ill increase my fuel line size before its dirty at all. I will cut it open when the time comes to change it.

I was trying to find some solid data on a voltage boosted(over 13.5v) walbro 450 and could find nothing on the internet. So I went to the source.

Sent TI Automotive an email asking about data and charts. I received this in return.


He did mention to expect shortened pump life when running these higher voltages. My voltage booster when triggered outputs around 17.5v with 40amps available current at that voltage.

These walbro 450 pumps are monsters when fed the power they need. Zero fuel pressure issues with e85, deka 80's, 15psi, 6800rpm with a 7875 on a 4.8. Should be in the 530-550whp area on a Mustang dyno. Duty cycle tops out at 83% at 15psi which is far better than the 104% I was seeing at 12psi before.

At 73psi of rail pressure the flow increase from 13.5v to 17v is around a 40% increase.

EDIT>>> I Looked at the graph...

I guess I still have a couple questions. How does MS account for the increased flow? Does it have a fuel pump output vs voltage table or do you correct for it in VE? In other words, you have to tune for it.... if that's the case, is the voltage-flow output consistent? answered my question on that part. I could imagine the tuning would be difficult if the voltage-flow output was changing.

and one more... do you have it set such that the pump voltage ramps up or is it just a reach a certain boost and pump booster turns on?

Thanks.

Mike

[cosbySweater]

Originally Posted by Andrewhans

So here's my question. 6 degrees of offset means that your timing map was in reality 6 deg more aggressive than your timing map showed or 6 degrees less aggressive.

I ask because at 14-15psi it feels VERY strong for only commanding 11-12 deg of timing under boost.

Yea it's to advanced. Add six degrees to what you have

[Andrewhans]

Originally Posted by 77volvo245

How many times have you changed your center bearing support rubber on you driveline?

Just the first time when I had the driveshaft built. Put a new bearing and rubber on it.

[Andrewhans]

Originally Posted by 740atl

EDIT>>> I Looked at the graph...

I guess I still have a couple questions. How does MS account for the increased flow? Does it have a fuel pump output vs voltage table or do you correct for it in VE? In other words, you have to tune for it.... if that's the case, is the voltage-flow output consistent? answered my question on that part. I could imagine the tuning would be difficult if the voltage-flow output was changing.

and one more... do you have it set such that the pump voltage ramps up or is it just a reach a certain boost and pump booster turns on?

Thanks.

Mike

It is actually very easy to tune around. I was having massive fuel pressure loss issues at high rpm and boost that I was already tuning around so this was just doing the opposite of that.

The booster comes on like a switch. Either on or off. I have the ecu trigger it at a certain point that I can change or set to whatever I want(MAP, Throttle, RPM...) What I did to minimize the amount of tuning needed was turn on the booster just before I would have normally started dropping fuel pressure so I don't actually have a pressure spike or anything in my datalogs. I now just have steady fuel pressure.

I guess I don't look at any of those variables now. I simply monitor the fuel pressure, AFR and VE1. As long as the AFR is what I'm commanding and the fuel pressure is steady I set the VE to whatever the engine needs.

EDIT: The flow through the injectors doesn't really change because the pressure stays the same with the regulator doing it's job. As long as you weren't increasing injector pulsewidth before hand for a "lack" of flow/pressure, there should be no tuning around the pump coming on(as long as you aren't overrunning the regulator when the extra flow occurs)

[Andrewhans]

Originally Posted by cosbySweater

Yea it's to advanced. Add six degrees to what you have

No wonder my plugs are reading like there's a bunch of timing in it haha. I've also been consistently finding little balls of aluminum on my plugs and heads... it all makes sense now. Need to find/rent a dial back light really bad now lol

I have a standard fixed timing light and have thought about installing a timing tape on the balancer, finding cyl 1 TDC and locking timing at like 14deg at idle and checking it then.

I'm probly running nearly 17-18deg of timing at 15psi... A bit aggressive I would say. Really surprised I haven't spit out a rod or melted a piston

[cosbySweater]

I had mine like that for a long time on 91 octane. It was sitting at around like 22 degrees. Didn't loose any material but still. Lol