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Old 10-07-2017, 02:36 PM   #76
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I know that this is good because it makes me feel like what I am doing is inferior in every way.

Wow. Probably the best thread on TB right now.
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Old 10-21-2017, 07:05 PM   #77
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Where did we leave off? Oh right, I was saying that I was forging ahead on the IFS install. Well, that went totally and completely off the rails. No joke. I could square the thing to the rear cross member from the LCA mounts, but then the rest of it was off by 1/4" - so I tried and tried, and built a giant trammel gauge to be sure...and guess what. It's junk.

The LCA's are not level, nor are they parallel (pinched 1/16" on the passenger side, and 3/16" on the drivers side!) then the entire thing isn't centred (the cross member sits 1/4" to the passenger side). So it's going in the metal recycling.



So this has led to a complete redesign of the front suspension. No more hot rod junk. I'm in the process of developing my own cross member and still have to keep to my timeline or this thread will never end. So back to the CAD drawing and head scratching we go.

Here's one of my current problems. The standard hot rod coil overs that I got with this part are junky. The shafts are not chromed and they chew through the seals. The spring rates are unknown and generally, I had resolved to sell them as soon as I saw them. They are urethane bushed and as I had to move the UCA mount back a full INCH to get the suspension back towards stock (let's not even discuss the amount of anti-dive the "engineering" company had dialled in to this mess), then the urethane mount won't work anyway as the coil over has to sit at an angle. This part only had 4" of total suspension travel to boot.

So I'm working around a Bilstein A2 racing coil over with 6" of stroke. This means the current mount has to go up quite a way...to about here.



At this sort of angle.



To get the straightest shot at the LCA mount - like so.



Now that would leave me with a rather funny looking mount - so I'm working on that. Other things that are now junk include my recently welded frame rails! The 4.5" kick on them is for the old cross member - and would have needed to be cut to make room for the tie rod. The existing cross member also just touches the steering monoball boot to get optimum Ackerman...I'll show you what I've cobbled together for a subframe when I get it done.

In the mean time - I'll be on the phone to Art Morrison Enterprises on Monday to see if they can bend me up a rail on the quick!

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Old 10-23-2017, 03:49 PM   #78
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In the mean time - I'll be on the phone to Art Morrison Enterprises on Monday to see if they can bend me up a rail on the quick!
You might be the 1st Volvo for AM? Pretty sure I asked while taking a tour of the facility.
Unbelievably impressive operation AM has. Art is a super nice guy.

just a few pics I took while there.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg am.jpg (117.4 KB, 490 views)
File Type: jpg weld.jpg (100.3 KB, 489 views)
File Type: jpg bends.jpg (84.3 KB, 487 views)
File Type: jpg mandrel.jpg (94.6 KB, 486 views)
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Old 10-23-2017, 03:54 PM   #79
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this is my favorite thread going!
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Old 10-24-2017, 01:40 AM   #80
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Is there any way we could get a more detailed view of the rear setup specifically where/how it ties in to the whole car? Did you make it into a bolt-on?? You're distilled determination. I'm in absolute awe of the beauty of the fabrication. It's...elegant.
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Old 11-06-2017, 11:15 AM   #81
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Is there any way we could get a more detailed view of the rear setup specifically where/how it ties in to the whole car? Did you make it into a bolt-on?? You're distilled determination. I'm in absolute awe of the beauty of the fabrication. It's...elegant.
Sure thing.

The entire subframe bolts in. There are monster urethane bushings at all four corners like this...



The through bolts attach to captured nuts in brackets that I have mounted in the cross beams of the frame. Now, the one at the back, I built - so it's 10 ga and has internal reinforcement at the mount points. Any pictures I have of it are on photobucket and dead. I modified the spare tire part to transfer this load. You can kind of see it here.



That's all either 2 X 3 tube or custom tube to form the front and sides. All 1/8" wall.

The front mount takes more of the load (given the original design and just thinking about it) so it needed to be as stiff as a 12 year old boy. So the bracket is 1/8" and is welded to the cross beam like so.



Then the bottom of the bracket will be wrapped around the cross beam when the rear floor pan goes back in (you can see I've opened up the entire floor/beam section. The top was then welded to the seat floor with a few brackets.



I also slugged the inside of this box section with some 2 X 3 120 wall tube that I think I had to shrink by 1/8" or something to fit up inside the frame. It's about 6" wide IIRC. It's all button welded in front and back.

Then I made these up - tricky little bastards.



They go here.



Effectively increasing the cross sectional area that the front of the frame exerts forces on.

Oh, and the seat still fits.



So that's how I did that. Could have done it differently - but that's what I was thinking at the time.
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Old 11-06-2017, 11:58 AM   #82
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Quick update. I'm waiting on the laser guy to cut all the brackets and stuff that I designed for the new front end. I got the confirmation from Art Morrison Enterprises that the can do something for the build. It won't be one piece the way I wanted as the die (shown in the post above) needs about 9" of material to trace through a bend for grip. We have 6". So I'm getting two piece parts that I will then weld together.

Here's the drawing if people are interested.



I don't have a complete drawing of the entire front end design. It's a remix of various ideas and constraints I've seen for other projects dealing with Corvette suspensions. It all starts with the LCA - We're going to rely on a longitudinal tube to establish the reference plane to attach the laser cut brackets to provide the accuracy needed. The ends of this tube have round tube parts to provide an attachment point to the frame rail. The front will be 1.5" 120 wall square tube and the rear will be 1.5 X 2.5" 120 wall tube mounted in the 1.5" direction so that the additional rear position forces can be managed.

So I carefully transferred all the dimensions off this crappy cross member one more time. Broke out the CAD and got it all modelled up and off to the laser cutter.



For optimal Ackermann this is the steering centre line.



Angles and more angles.



These are the start parts. I was super pissed off about this entire build being stalled...so these parts have 5 thou of variance (total - using variance in the statistical sense - square it if you want the standard deviation - they're f'ing perfect - take that you hot rod piece of garbage).



All of the mill scale is cleaned off the weld areas prior to TIG'ing it all up.

You can sort of see the idea here. I should learn to photograph the welds better. They are nicer in reality than they look here.



A quick check with the oil pan shows the first consequence of doing the cross member this way - that fat-arsed pan is going to have to shrink a little. No biggie.



The soapstone line shows where the steering axis will be. We're going to be needing a bracket.

The real CAD.



This will be cut from 3/8" plate and have through brackets and be capped and all the strength that is needed. It'll be fun to weld up, I may even need to break out the 7018!

With that sitting on the bench, it's time to toss the engine and trans into the engine bay for the first time.



We all know it fits...but whatever.



Still needs a little more up at the back.



I'll have to cut a bit more out of the tunnel.



Floor mount pedal box clears nicely.



Bottom starter bolt is going to be an issue - the engine still has to come forward about a half inch.

I think once the tilt is settled, this clearance for the cam position sensor etc will be fine.



Even with the new frame rail being 1.5" taller, the AC compressor bolts are still going to be an issue - but I don't mind creating a little notch to get them out and installed. So that looks good.



And that's where we sit as of now.
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Old 11-06-2017, 12:05 PM   #83
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Man, it's great to see the engine and trans in there. I'm also encouraged to see the hole you cut for the t5 shifter. I've been looking at my early 142 tunnel (similar to your 122 tunnel, perhaps?) and the T5 in my garage. It looked to me like I'd have to cut a lot more than just a small square.
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Old 11-06-2017, 01:52 PM   #84
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Man, it's great to see the engine and trans in there. I'm also encouraged to see the hole you cut for the t5 shifter. I've been looking at my early 142 tunnel (similar to your 122 tunnel, perhaps?) and the T5 in my garage. It looked to me like I'd have to cut a lot more than just a small square.
Don't be fooled...There is still a lot more that has to come out to get things where they need to go. I also don't have to be constrained by the shape of the original box section just behind the tailshaft. If it has to go to clear things, then my floor is out and I can fabricate something for that.
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Old 11-06-2017, 02:12 PM   #85
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Oh. So the trans has to come up more? Is the whiteblock mounted higher than the the b18 was?
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Old 11-06-2017, 03:18 PM   #86
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Oh. So the trans has to come up more? Is the whiteblock mounted higher than the the b18 was?
Trying to get some conformation on the installed height of the crank centre of the redblock (measurements I forgot to take). I think it's around the same height with where my steering rack has to go. The trans output sits around level with the top of the cross beam - so that won't work
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:24 PM   #87
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Looking for a fun way to waste some time? I've just opened my YouTube Channel chronicling the build.

https://youtu.be/9vd4MN9yifg
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Old 11-08-2017, 07:29 AM   #88
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Impressive! My fabrication skills make me feel.... puny! How many hours/week are you spending on this project?

One more thing.... is that your own design T5 adapter for the Whiteblock BH? I've got a M90 for mine, but the T5 is plan B.
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Old 11-08-2017, 10:48 AM   #89
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Trying to get some conformation on the installed height of the crank centre of the redblock (measurements I forgot to take). I think it's around the same height with where my steering rack has to go. The trans output sits around level with the top of the cross beam - so that won't work
Ha, I forgot to measure my b18 crank height too. For the trans tunnel, what about swapping the T5 a Chevy S10 tail housing? I have been kicking this idea around, as it would move the shifter forward about 8-9" and hopefully spare that rear brace in the early tunnel.

Other than that, the trans output should be in the same place, height-wise as the M40 was, right?
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:05 AM   #90
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Impressive! My fabrication skills make me feel.... puny! How many hours/week are you spending on this project?

One more thing.... is that your own design T5 adapter for the Whiteblock BH? I've got a M90 for mine, but the T5 is plan B.
Thanks. Not as many hours as I would like. I go through phases I guess - the engineering and design was supposed to be done and dusted and I was just going to pound on the build...then this redesign hit. At this point around 20 - 25 hours a week is a good guess.

That is my design on the T5-T5 but DeeWorks.ca (RogerDee) makes them. The issue with both transmissions is strength. So, my T5 will get an A-5 gear set from Astro Performance. I looked at the M90, but with shipping it's all about the same. It may shift better, but I've got no complaints on the shifting of the T5 I built for my 242.
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:13 AM   #91
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Ha, I forgot to measure my b18 crank height too. For the trans tunnel, what about swapping the T5 a Chevy S10 tail housing? I have been kicking this idea around, as it would move the shifter forward about 8-9" and hopefully spare that rear brace in the early tunnel.

Other than that, the trans output should be in the same place, height-wise as the M40 was, right?
I've long since committed to altering the tunnel cross member if needed. I've also removed the trans brackets that connect to the frame. I'll sort all that out when I need it done.

In an ideal world, the output shaft would be at the same height - my biggest clearance issue is the steering rack height. I tried to get that as low as possible given that the C4 is a front-mid engined layout, the rack is up around the middle of the upright and would have caused endless issues. So I dropped it as far as I thought I could and have modified the uprights to accept bump steer corrector pins in the steering arms. Then had the rack built. Probably would go back and wait on that decision until a little later knowing what I know now...but our dollar was at par at the time and this did save 30% on the cost of the part (which is non-trivial). I worked it out, but as always...missing one measurement!
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:16 AM   #92
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@Canuck everytime this thread is updated, It makes me moist. Thanks for always putting a smile on my easterner face!


Keep up the good work and may the swedish lords of balls of meat be with you.
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:57 AM   #93
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I've long since committed to altering the tunnel cross member if needed. I've also removed the trans brackets that connect to the frame. I'll sort all that out when I need it done.

In an ideal world, the output shaft would be at the same height - my biggest clearance issue is the steering rack height. I tried to get that as low as possible given that the C4 is a front-mid engined layout, the rack is up around the middle of the upright and would have caused endless issues. So I dropped it as far as I thought I could and have modified the uprights to accept bump steer corrector pins in the steering arms. Then had the rack built. Probably would go back and wait on that decision until a little later knowing what I know now...but our dollar was at par at the time and this did save 30% on the cost of the part (which is non-trivial). I worked it out, but as always...missing one measurement!
Good point, you're way past having to worry about cutting the trans tunnel. I forgot about the C4 front end, too. I just watched the first YouTube episode and subscribed. This is the best build on TB for sure!
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Old 11-08-2017, 02:38 PM   #94
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That is my design on the T5-T5 but DeeWorks.ca (RogerDee) makes them. The issue with both transmissions is strength. So, my T5 will get an A-5 gear set from Astro Performance. I looked at the M90, but with shipping it's all about the same. It may shift better, but I've got no complaints on the shifting of the T5 I built for my 242.
If you're getting the A5 gears, you probably should get the G force case. The case is the typical failure point from what I read, and putting your nice gears in an old case just doesn't seem worth it.
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Old 11-08-2017, 05:19 PM   #95
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If you're getting the A5 gears, you probably should get the G force case. The case is the typical failure point from what I read, and putting your nice gears in an old case just doesn't seem worth it.
Good point - I hadn't considered it...I sure do wish there was a one stop shop for these parts. Astro is sort of a mish-mash of parts and availability. I'm not buying anything transmission related until I need to move under power. It's a big ticket item and I'm a long way back.
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Old 11-08-2017, 05:23 PM   #96
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Good point - I hadn't considered it...I sure do wish there was a one stop shop for these parts. Astro is sort of a mish-mash of parts and availability. I'm not buying anything transmission related until I need to move under power. It's a big ticket item and I'm a long way back.
Yeah, it would be nice if there was one place to go for a nice T5 based trans. I've seen a few complete A5 transmissions with G force cases on the corrall classifieds. That's probably the closest thing to a one stop shop if you don't mind used.
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:17 PM   #97
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Looking for a fun way to waste some time? I've just opened my YouTube Channel chronicling the build.

https://youtu.be/9vd4MN9yifg
Looks promising, good beard. Subscribed!
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Old 11-09-2017, 04:44 AM   #98
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have to follow this build! much awesome!
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Old 11-15-2017, 11:24 AM   #99
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Episode 2 is now up. I'm still waiting on parts folks - but my laser guy assures me that they will be delivered today. So in the mean time, here's the youtube link.

https://youtu.be/Q_ZcMBQS6RQ
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Old 12-11-2017, 03:19 PM   #100
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We're up to Episode 5. I'll update this thread with photo's and such when I have the time. This is the last video of how the front end finally drove me over the edge. Parts are all in and I'm working hard to get the front end done.

https://youtu.be/beTBmasUqXg
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