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B234 woes, Any solid cam buckets/lifters in the US yet?

qwkswede

Old and Slow
300+ Club
Joined
Mar 19, 2003
Location
Denver, CO
Hey guys. I have been cranking on my B23 w/16v head and turbo the last few days and haven't been able to start it. I was checking everything, fiddling with ign. timing. Checking the cam timing, and anything else I thought might be wrong. It never sounded quite right when cranking, like it was spinning too smoothly. Well, Now I think I finally discovered why my car won't start. Or at least I have a very solid theory now. The weird cranking sound was due to not having any compression. I put my compression gauge on every cylinder, turned the key, and I would sometimes get a tiny blip on the needle on the first compression stroke. But as soon as the motor cranked for more than a split second (think oil pressure here) I would get nothing on the compression gauge. The first thing I thought, was that I might have somehow bent some valves during assembly. But on all 4 cylinders? Unbelievable. But then I came to my senses and had a little more faith in myself to assemble a motor carefully without screwing up something THAT bad. What I am quite sure is happening is that the valves are hanging open once I get some oil pressure. The hydraulic lifters pump up to their normal spec when cranking and they start getting oil and are keeping the valves from touching the seats. Somehow, the machinist that performed the valve job on my head must have screwed up the valve stem height on the motor. He ground the valves, and the seats I'm sure, which sunk the valves maybe 20-100 thousandths? But maybe he didn't grind the valve tips down to set the proper tip height again? Maybe he was thinking they were adjustable somehow?

Darnit! In an attempt to salvage this problem without tearing the head completely out of the car again I was thinking of doing the solid lifter conversion. Has anyone pulled this off in the US yet? Can I get the lifters and shims somewhere? Even if I have to order them from sweden or something?

I have a feeling the right thing to do is get the head over to the machinist and let him fix it. Does anyone have a spec for the proper valve height on a B234?
 
wish I could help.... but I'm pretty ignorant of the specs of the b234... I just assumed all the stock stuff worked and threw it all back together.... mine came straight from a JY car.

Did the lifters rotate freely in the lifter bores? I had a couple stick, but I removed and oiled the hell out of them...

can you rotate the cams by hand? (with the belt off of course)

Mike
 
Yeah, the lifters are new, and they rotate freely. I'll try to take some measurements tonight to see if the lifters are completely compressed when they are on the "back" of the cam lobe. I guess nearly compressed would be enough to lift the valves off their seats when the oil pressure pumps the lifters up. I'm not sure how these lifters are designed. With adjustable valvetrains on American things, you usually go to zero lash, then compress the lifter about .050".(1/2 turn). I wonder where I am with these volvo buckets.
 
aaron (ntrx) had the same kind of issues with his 16v... hence why his car is still not up and running.... he had his issue because hs MS took to much off the valves or something about them being cut wrong. he has tried all kinds of things and last i heard none of them did anything to help it run. tho read up in the 16v faq as i think he posted about the solid lifters needed
 
do the lifters squish at all? I had a bucket of b234 hydraulics to choose from... I noticed some were rigid and some squishy when I squeezed them... (very non-technical terms) I'm going to say they squished about 3ish mm (1/8") when I squeezed them.... I chose the squishy ones.

I dunno.

I'm interested to see what you find.

Mike
 
aaron (ntrx) had the same kind of issues with his 16v... hence why his car is still not up and running.... he had his issue because hs MS took to much off the valves or something about them being cut wrong. he has tried all kinds of things and last i heard none of them did anything to help it run. tho read up in the 16v faq as i think he posted about the solid lifters needed


Hey lostartofallthingsvolvo,
Would you be able to source the funny Renault lifters that people have talked about on the Forum elsewhere? I wonder how hard it would be to come up with those and a set of adjustment shims too. Sounds difficult.

Yeah. A normal valve job would sink the valves into the head a fair amount. You grind the valves a little, grind the seats a little, and Voila! the valve stem tips are closer to the cam than they are supposed to be. Now, a proper machine shop would cut the tips down to their correct height. If he new things were not adjustable. And I suppose the springs should be shimmed too so that the spring tension isn't lost.
 
i think i checked for aaron and couldn't get them .. tho if you can get me more part numbers i can sure try

but yea read up and talk to aaron as he knows a LOT aboutthis issue

it seems the only people with running 16v setups are those who leave the heads and valves stock(here in the US @ least) so there must be something the US shops are doing wrong when they work on these heads
 
Wow, good thinking. Smaller base circle cams. Hrrrmmmm.

Who should I contact about this sort of nonsense? It might be more economical than finding a set of solid lifters and a complete set of adjustment shims that I would need.

I have only had custom grinds from guys like Chet Herbert. I don't know if he could do a set of volvo cams. But probably. I have some connections. I might pursue this.
 
I wouldnt think it is a valve/lifter issue. Upon build-up the lifters rattle pretty good until the pressure builds up inside, like 10-20 minutes of the engine running. I dont think the machinist could have ground off that much but I guess it is possible

What timing belt/tensioner combo are you using? what pistons do you have? where did you source the head ?

Can you do a leak-down test ? If so try it with the cams out as well.
 
I"m running a Dick Prince tensioner setup with the Mitubishi Montero belt. Round tooth pulleys everywhere. There is no way its a valve timing issue though. Low compression from valve timing maybe. But not ZERO.
 
ONe of my first thoughts was. "Did I maybe reverse the intake and exhaust cams." But then after thinking about this. I realized that this would successfully make the engine pump air in the opposite direction. In the exhaust and out the intake. But there would still be some time when the valves are all closed and you would see compression on the gauge.
 
... if you are sure you have the valve timing set up right and you didnt somehow bend the valves after install of the head, rings are good and head-gasket is sealed.... the isnt really anything else but the valve/lifter problem. Do a leak down with the cams out.

There werent a whole lot of 16v's coming through the shop I used to work at but still a few. I never heard of any problems after sending a head to the machine shop.
 
do a leak down test. once as-is, once w/o the cams in. that will confirm or eliminate this as an issue.
get back w/ your findings, we'll take it from there.
note: solid lifters will make noise, not good for knock sensors.
-Aaron
fyi, it is possible to reverse valves also. but leak down it.
 
also in my "16v propper clearance" thread theres a pic from a 16v lifter i tore up. it has a check valve that allows fluid to enter, but not go. this way at low rpm, the valves are quiet. once pumped up, they have to be pulled out and drained, or hope they slowly leak. you will not increase clearance any other way.
if the lifters spin (as listed before) with the cam on the base circle on a cyl, you have clearance.
also, gauvin can order shims from germany at the dealer if needed.
 
Leakdown, I can do. I guess that would help pinpoint the problem to the intake or exhaust side too. I may try that tonight. Good advice.

Here is the plan:
1. leakdown
2. check for any remaining travel in the lifters when on the backside of the cam by pushing down on the lifter.
3. remove the cams
4. leakdown
5. Reassemble without lifters, and Measure the distance from valve stem tip to the back of the cam, and compare that to the specs for the fully compressed and fully extended lifter.

n_xtrnx 16V turbo FAQ has some good info on the lifters.
Tappets = diameter 35mm/ 1.378"
total heigth 26mm/ 1.024"
distance to top of valve, unloaded 18.40mm/ 0.724"
loaded 16.15mm/ 0.636"
Springs, length unloaded, 43.0mm/ 1.6929"
length loaded 212-252N, 37mm/ 1.45669"
length loaded 600-680N, 26.5mm/ 1.0433"

Oh, and I found the fantastic thread with reground 16v cam info too.
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=48558

I'll give American Cams a call once I am more sure of my problem and have some specs in mind.

What an annoying problem, though it might turn out good. I'm wondering how those grinds that Aaron made are working out performance wise.
 
the lifters will "give alittle when at max travel. the main check is the rotating smoothly. it should spin very smoothly without binding.
the cam choice i've done is a good all-around. base circle can be set seperate of that.
one day i'll merge those threads into the faq, along with stage 2 work under way.
 
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