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Old 01-05-2019, 06:09 AM   #1
Leon_pp
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Default [issue] LH2.2 Hall sensor + MS2

Hi,

I have issue with a LH2.2 type hall sensor on a redblock (on a 740, so a cam type sensor) with a V3.57 MS2 Extra with last code.
No problem with reading RPM, configured it in trigger return mode, set R52 et R56 and this is OK.

I have a direct coil ignition via stock BIP on MS. I can't have a stable ignition angle. It always move even on fixed timing.

Have anyone an idea for my problem?

Thanks a lot
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Old 01-05-2019, 07:19 AM   #2
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Tach input shielded?
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Old 01-05-2019, 08:26 AM   #3
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yes, via stock B230ET wiring harness
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Old 01-05-2019, 08:38 AM   #4
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How are you measuring the spark angle?
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Old 01-05-2019, 08:47 AM   #5
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mesure, no.
Set it via mesuring voltage output of the hall sensor
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Old 01-05-2019, 12:28 PM   #6
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Is the engine running at all? Can it idle, maybe at higher than normal RPM?

You could try using "Basic Trigger" mode first. I forget the details, but Trigger Return mode switches sensor edges between cranking and running - maybe you're seeing that switch? For Trigger Return, you need to set both the standard Trigger Angle and the Cranking Angle to match your distributor position and the vane size in the distributor.

If you're still having problems, can you post a screenshot of a "High Speed Logger -> Tooth Logger" while running, or cranking?
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Old 01-05-2019, 01:12 PM   #7
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it idle,
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Old 01-05-2019, 01:49 PM   #8
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i try to set trigger angle with a stromboscopic lamp. But with a fixed -10° timing the timing is not stable and change a lot.
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Old 01-05-2019, 02:00 PM   #9
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I agree.
I don't think trigger return is the correct setting.

I used "basic trigger" "rising edge" with the Volvo distributor for input.
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Old 01-05-2019, 02:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Rick View Post
I agree.
I don't think trigger return is the correct setting.

I used "basic trigger" "rising edge" with the Volvo distributor for input.
And you confirm that it work and it is usable?
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Old 01-05-2019, 02:57 PM   #11
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Yes Those settings were used through 3 versions of the firmware.

Probably using the opto input though as that is how it was done then.

Have you used the VR or Opto input method?

Last edited by Dirty Rick; 01-05-2019 at 03:03 PM..
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Old 01-05-2019, 03:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Rick View Post
Yes Those settings were used through 3 versions of the firmware.

Probably using the opto input though as that is how it was done then.

Have you used the VR or Opto input method?
Don't undersstand, i have a Hall sensor in my dizzy.
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Old 01-05-2019, 04:29 PM   #13
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Set trigger to falling edge, and feed it some hardware latency. Timing belt stretch throws off timing accuracy by a small but significant degree.

Also set your trigger angle to 45° and rotate the distributor to match. My timing used to get constantly thrown off until I did it this way. Set it, rip on it for a minute, adjust distributor again as it will certainly get thrown off.
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Old 01-05-2019, 06:23 PM   #14
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Actually the proper way to set it is to loosen the distributor and set it where the rotor is centered on #1 post at 25°BTDC and lock it down and never move the dist again.

Timing is set via Tuner Studio by changing the trigger angle offset.
Use 15° "fixed" to set timing then change back to use table.

Choose either Rising or falling edge to eliminate timing change when you rev it up. One will be stable one won't.
Note timing base setting will change depending on triggering choice, so don't be surprised when it runs like crap (or won't start) after flipping this setting.

If you look at the timing belt arrangement you will see the distance between the crank and the Aux shaft pulley is very short and very little belt stretch occurs, plus the load of the oil pump stabilizes the distributor.
This likely provides a more stable signal than the head mounted distributor. (which it appears the OP has)
But even then the large base circle cam and conservative lift do not stress the cam belt significantly.
And then most of the error will be seen at low RPM diminishing as rpm increases.
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Old 01-05-2019, 06:23 PM   #15
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Actualy i have something like 75 deg trigger offset
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Old 01-05-2019, 06:45 PM   #16
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And old saved MSQ i have shows 81° offset rising edge
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Old 01-06-2019, 07:08 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
Set trigger to falling edge, and feed it some hardware latency. Timing belt stretch throws off timing accuracy by a small but significant degree.

Also set your trigger angle to 45° and rotate the distributor to match. My timing used to get constantly thrown off until I did it this way. Set it, rip on it for a minute, adjust distributor again as it will certainly get thrown off.
So you propose to get 45° trigger offset in MS and turni distributor to match this?
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Old 01-06-2019, 01:29 PM   #18
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Yep. It's the most consistent method. Also set the triggering to falling edge. It's way more stable.
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Old 01-06-2019, 09:20 PM   #19
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My block mounted distributor is set to 53.40, trigger return, falling edge. The rotor is about halfway past the #1 post at TDC. I set my fixed timing at 12°, mostly because when I set it up that's what the factory timing was already set to and I hadn't moved the distributor.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:30 PM   #20
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Nothing better this way.
Only better if i get spark after top dead center.
And if i start with The stock motronic i have 20* advance instead 10* and rock solid.
Checked The timing belt and still The same
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:55 PM   #21
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Is the setup for the head mounted distributors different from the block mounted?
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:57 PM   #22
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Stock it is a head mounted dizzy.
I just finish recheck timing belt and get the stock dizzy and still 20*
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:35 PM   #23
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Here is my understanding of how MS works.

1) First, let me explain Trigger Return mode and how it differs from Basic Trigger mode.

Basic Trigger mode uses a single edge of the distributor hall sensor for all timing. MS delays spark from that edge for both cranking and running.

During cranking, the engine speed varies a lot. Delaying a long time from a single sensor edge can cause a big variation in spark timing while cranking.

Trigger Return mode can give better engine starting. In Trigger Return mode, MS uses the opposite edge of the hall sensor/slotted cup during cranking. During cranking, MS fires the spark immediately when the cranking edge of the hall sensor passes. This means that you must rotate your distributor to give the desired timing during cranking. None of the MS settings change Cranking advance when in Trigger Return mode. This cranking advance timing value gets entered into the MS Cranking Advance field (I don't know what MS uses this for). The max RPM to still be "Cranking" is set in the Startup/Cranking settings.

I'd suggest getting the engine running well in Basic Trigger mode first. If starting is difficult, you can then try Trigger Return mode.

2) I think you said that you can still run the engine with the original Motronic setup. If so, here's what I would do:

- Run with Motronic. Use a strobe light and rotate the distributor to give the factory specified timing. Lock down the distributor and don't move it again.
- Change to MS, in Basic Trigger mode.
- Temporarily set MS to FixedAdvance/FixedTiming mode, with a 10deg FixedTimingAdvance
- Start the engine and go to the MS IgnitionSetting/TriggerWizard
- Using a strobe light, adjust the MS IgnitionOffsetAngle until the strobe light shows the 10deg fixed advance.
- Change Timing from FixedAdvance back to UseTable.
- Using the strobe, see if idle timing is stable. Next, see if timing varies smoothly as you rev the engine.
- If timing is not stable, please run the MS Tooth Logger. Either post a link to the log (.csv) file, or post a screenshot of the log.

Hope this helps - Bob
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:28 AM   #24
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Rotating dizzy with stock motronic not do anything.
Timing is get via 2 vr sensor on flywheel
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Old 01-12-2019, 12:54 PM   #25
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Where did your distributor come from? And what model ignition control box did it use originally?

In the USA, LH2.2 fuel control was paired with either EZ117K or Chrysler ignition control. Both of these systems use a distributor with a fixed gear-to-rotor shaft. In the USA, the earlier K-Jet cars used a distributor with centrifugal advance and TZ TransistoriZed ignition.

Does your distributor have a fixed shaft between gear and rotor, or does it have centrifugal advance? If it has centrifugal advance, timing will vary with speed and it won't work with MS.

Is there some reason that you want to use the distributor for MS instead of the toothed flywheel?
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