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Old 11-07-2020, 02:33 PM   #51
dl242gt
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If you want torque why do you want an H or K cam? I'd suggest something like a V15 or even a V16 cam from enem. The V15 is actually called the torque cam with a powerband from 2k-6k rpms. Mine makes power to 7k rpm.
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Old 11-07-2020, 03:50 PM   #52
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basically, i thought i knew a bit about engines before i started to tune this volvo engine, but now i havnt a clue what im doing !!

I like the idea of the v15 but by the time one gets here to me in the uk its like £420-450, the H is new is £146 plus a little bit of postage from Dai.

i thought he had the k cam but i cant see it now, he has the vx, h, t4, t5 cams all roughly the same price.
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Old 11-07-2020, 06:36 PM   #53
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A broad power band is what you need and low gearing, you can afford to have a top speed of 100MPH on the rev limit in top gear
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Old 11-07-2020, 07:50 PM   #54
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yes, but even when it had the 5.0 and the is200 box, it had a fair top speed ...

its now a 4.1, but i recon it wont rev liek the m44


If it had rogers penta motor it would be some car.
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Old 11-08-2020, 06:27 PM   #55
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You can get equivalent cams to the enem ones from other places. Dai can probably get you something. If not check out KL racing. They have reground cams that will give you a broad powerband. The reason enem cams cost is that they are newly ground cams. Something like the specs of a V16 should work well for you.
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Old 11-08-2020, 06:58 PM   #56
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Sounds like what you need is a lot of rear axle ratio and enough rpm to support that.
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Old 11-09-2020, 03:28 PM   #57
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the ratio can be changed back, but i havnt the power atm i need to get that bit right first.

the cam, thing is you look at the tb cam chart, and the v16 looks good, little duration etc, good lift, but then you look at the kg0002 and its 300 degs, and says lot s of low end torque.


I just dont get it.
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Old 11-10-2020, 03:14 AM   #58
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I have another response started, but again it got too long for me to complete. I'm silly like that, sorry!

I don't know how you're running a .5mm/.020" headgasket, are you CERTAIN that's what you're running? Your pistons should be hitting the cylinder head when you rev it up if you are using such a thin headgasket and your B230A has pistons that stick up above the block's deck like all the B230s I've seen do. Cometic doesn't even make a gasket that thin that I know of, but maybe they do?
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Originally Posted by Avtovaz View Post
the cam, thing is you look at the tb cam chart, and the v16 looks good, little duration etc, good lift, but then you look at the kg0002 and its 300 degs, and says lot s of low end torque.

I just dont get it.
Those duration numbers aren't measured at the same lift. I don't think you're going to get what you want with a K or H cam. It'll be basically the same power numbers you have now, even with a ported 530 head and stock valves. I dyno'd 135whp or so on my big valve 530 cylinder head with the ENEM K13 camshaft, K camshaft AND H camshaft. That head didn't have the valve seats and port throats opened up to match the valves though, and it only had .040"/1mm shaved off the head with a .040"/1mm headgasket.

I am not certain your KL S/T5 camshaft is too large, but you want static compression likely around 12:1. Even with only 11:1, you should still have over 160hp at the crank using a near stock 531 and that camshaft. Something isn't quite right. What was your air-fuel ratio? What was your ignition timing at full throttle? Did you play with camshaft timing? Your setup shouldn't be only 160hp, I would expect.

We did mid-150whp with an Enem K13 that is a smaller camshaft(only slightly larger than an H) and around 11:1 or so, but that is a more mild camshaft than yours. Lots of torque from 3000rpm all the way to 6000rpm though. Unshroud the valves, shave more off the head for a smaller combustion chamber for closer to 12:1 and run it with better tuning.

If you want to try something "cheap" and easy, put an H cam in it without doing anything to the head. I don't know that you need to swap to a 530, although its smaller intake ports may help with torque at lower rpm. I think you don't need that though, just more compression/flow and to figure out why your current power level is as low as it is.
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Old 11-10-2020, 03:19 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dl242gt View Post
You can get equivalent cams to the enem ones from other places. Dai can probably get you something. If not check out KL racing. They have reground cams that will give you a broad powerband. The reason enem cams cost is that they are newly ground cams. Something like the specs of a V16 should work well for you.
He is running the largest KL Racing camshaft, the S/T5. I really, really want it to measured by Shoestring and Robert has one he could send'm... But, it's likely freezing out there and I don't know if he wants to do camshaft measuring right now. Regardless, it should be making more than 160hp, I expect!
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Old 11-10-2020, 09:19 AM   #60
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Just copied from the email

In work so will reply tonight


.027" MLS H/G 240,740,940
C4499-027 VOLVO B23 78' - 98' 97MM $116.88 $116.88 1
Applica
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Old 11-10-2020, 09:28 AM   #61
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It's not cold...yet. I can see it hiding around the corner.
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Old 11-10-2020, 09:37 AM   #62
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It would be great to have some more info on the cam. Tried to ask the specs from KL again but they ain't helpful at all!
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Old 11-10-2020, 04:19 PM   #63
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so the head gasket is 0.68mm, slightly thicker than i thought but not that much! the pistons are dished and only come flush with the top of the bore. I think the dish is 3cc but not sure.

I havnt got the chart of the air fuel ratio, but my mate has told me that chris aims for 12.5:1. i have not much idea of what that means in relation to what i have...

Not sure of the timing, i can download the map for tuner studio, but im not really into that side of things...

we moved the cam 4 degs advanced and retarded from where i had timed it in, and chris said i had got it spot on, and there was no more power to be gotten out of the engine.

the head swap is only because if i port the 531, and i mess it up, ive got no 531 to go back to, so i was thinking of new cam and the 530. But reading now, i think the thing is take teh 531 off again, measure what i have CC in the head etc, and skim more.

But every time i take it to chris, its £150-200, and a day off work, its not that dear, he is good, but this would be the 5th time its been there, so ive spent £1000 with him!!

i have emailed kl racing about another camshaft i had, and they basically said they had no idea, let you r engine tuner work it out.


So the main difference between my engine and my mates boat engine is 200cc and his induction, he had split 50;s.

There is no european version of the lh2.4 that i could have that is smaller, or something liek that? Its just so strange its not making power.



not a very good vid, but on some pics i have i can see its saying 12.5:1 arf

CLICK HERE

Last edited by Avtovaz; 11-10-2020 at 04:28 PM..
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Old 11-10-2020, 06:42 PM   #64
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Ok. If your pistons are flush with the top of the bore, your headgasket is fine. I would be curious to know what the volume of your combustion chambers are, but I can't explain the low power, even if your compression is a little low. 12.5:1 AFR should be fine. It may make a little bit more power with it leaner, but not much.

You may not need to tune the fueling much more after doing some more head work, it may be ok as is(ignition may want less advance, depending on what it currently is, but if it leaned out to 13:1 AFR it wouldn't be the end of the world).

Can you confirm that you're running a Microsquirt for fuel tuning and a LH2.4's factory EZK for the ignition side of things? Is the ignition timing changed from stock or has that not been touched yet? I don't expect you to pick up power if it's still stock, but it might prevent you from blowing it up if it's still too advanced.
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Old 11-10-2020, 07:00 PM   #65
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the microsquirt controls everything, sorry i should have said before, its got a bmw m54 front pulley on it, cosworth crank sensor, no cam sensor, tps, gm 3 bar map sensor, intake temp sensor, coolant sensor, and thats about it.

So its all fully mapped
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Old 11-10-2020, 07:12 PM   #66
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Ok, so LH2.4 is not restricting you in any way. It should have more power...!?
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Old 11-10-2020, 09:27 PM   #67
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See my notes in red.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avtovaz View Post
one thing i have noticed also is you run 92 octane fuel, we have 95 and 99 available here, and i can use an octane booster if i wish also. But however, means my 160 bhp at yours would be like 150! Is the 531 unleaded too? i never thought about this before! - Our 92 octane fuel is basically equivalent to your 95 octane fuel. Our engine has been able to run ignition timing more advanced than needed for MBT(maximum brake torque), so we are not limited by our fuel's octane rating. At least, not with our single Singh groove and 11:1 compression with the ENEM K13 camshaft. We haven't had the car back on the dyno with the 11.7:1 compression and ENEM C2(copy) camshaft to dial it in any further and I haven't changed the ignition timing between the two setups.
[...]
with the exhaust ports, is there a mod i can do that makes a big difference with out being hours of messing? As in, if im going to at best get 190 bhp out of it, can i get nearly there myself? - I don't think you necessarily need to go crazy with it, just make sure the area beneath the valve is opened up to 86-88% of the valve diameter and blend it in nicely? Ask Robert for more detail and/or look at Erland's webpage I've linked in one of these recent threads. Robert did some clean up on our head with some suggestions from Erland.

With the cast manifold also, is there a place to take metal from and not too? - Anywhere that is a road block to flow, sure? You can gasket match the exhaust manifold's inlets(don't gasket match the head) and you can open up the outlets a little, but make sure the exits are the same diameter as or smaller than the inlets to your downpipe.

how come some of the factory cams can make such big power? The K cam i hear is good. They are ok, and depending on the setup can make 150whp. Typically, they make less than 135whp unless a lot more work is done.

My mates boat motor was 2mm from the 531, cast exhaust manifold, k cam, 2500cc, split 50s, 156 at the wheels. Those additional 200cc means he is running a lot more compression than you, assuming his piston dish is similar to yours. He's cramming another 200cc of air/fuel into a smaller combustion chamber than you. On top of that, he has MUCH, MUCH better intake flow through those 50mm carbs. If he put a larger camshaft in there and took even more off the head, he'd have closer to 180-200whp depending on his choices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi Alanko View Post
Your cam is good for at least 200whp. It is NOT good for 200whp. It might be ok for 200hp or just over in the right setup, but definitely NOT 200whp. It is not 300° of duration at 1mm of lift or .050" of lift. It's not as aggressive as you think.
What you need is a head flow, in na-engine especially intake flow.
You need to port that 531 and change valves to 46/38, porting is difficult without experience or flowbench, so you need to find a speed shop that made porting to you, they usually give you flow rates as well. - Yes, I agree you can make more power with 46/38mm valves and everything else set up properly, but I can also tell you that you can make 180whp with STOCK sized valves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avtovaz View Post
What is the best cam to go for if i wanted low end power? Maybe what you have is ok for low end power, you just need more compression? Otherwise, something with good lift but less duration. Our ENEM K13 camshaft did great torque and a super wide powerband in the race car. It's a little bit more aggressive than the K and H camshafts that also have wide powerbands.
If you want torque, you need compression. Pull the 531, unshroud the valves a little on the intake and exhaust side, shave maybe another .7-1mm off or so, do a little port clean-up on the exhaust and maybe intake if there's anything really there to clean up, and run it as is. Verify the pistons don't stick up out of the bores any, as a .027" gasket might be too tight if they do for 7500rpm. Based on your dyno plot, it seems like either something is not flowing as well as it should, or this camshaft is actually quite small even though it is advertised as being relatively large. Your powerband is reasonable, it just seems like it should be showing WHEEL power and torque readings, not ENGINE readings.
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Old 11-11-2020, 04:32 PM   #68
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right thankyou ! this time itll have a standard type head gasket on it i think the cometic one has been on the 530, then the 531 2 times now, so im not convinced its a wise move to use it again.

I have had to re read every word you have said mate, maybe 20 times, and then it clicks. Ill try to get the head off this friday, and at least measure it and report the results with pics hopefully.


One thing Vince who rolling roaded my mate rogers car said about his engine was that they seemed not able to get enough air into it, fuel was ok, but a good flow of air in, it just wanted more and more. He was on the factory dizzy and coil. His split manifold was a volvo carb manifold with plates welded onto it.


Oh also, my sump is standard, down the lanes i go there isnt any hard cornering like on a circuit, but maybe also id like to sort something out with the sump too, any suggestions please?

thankyou oh so much, i was very nearly thinking of buying back my old bmw engine, but didnt want to.
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Old 11-11-2020, 04:55 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avtovaz View Post
right thankyou ! this time itll have a standard type head gasket on it i think the cometic one has been on the 530, then the 531 2 times now, so im not convinced its a wise move to use it again.

I have had to re read every word you have said mate, maybe 20 times, and then it clicks. Ill try to get the head off this friday, and at least measure it and report the results with pics hopefully.


One thing Vince who rolling roaded my mate rogers car said about his engine was that they seemed not able to get enough air into it, fuel was ok, but a good flow of air in, it just wanted more and more. He was on the factory dizzy and coil. His split manifold was a volvo carb manifold with plates welded onto it.


Oh also, my sump is standard, down the lanes i go there isnt any hard cornering like on a circuit, but maybe also id like to sort something out with the sump too, any suggestions please?

thankyou oh so much, i was very nearly thinking of buying back my old bmw engine, but didnt want to.
Well, you don't want to go to a stock headgasket because it's .047" thick instead of your current .027" and will take you out of the ideal piston-head quench clearance range of .030-.040". The tighter it is, the higher your compression is, too. We're running somewhere around .025" clearance right now(at least on one cylinder) and haven't had an issue so far that I know of up to 7100rpm. Our .036" gasket has been used three different times now as well, and so far it's ok. We use Hylomar or a copper coat on it to try and help it not be an issue. So far, so good and we have three races on it this year since it was last apart.

If you want more reading, and more reading of basically the same stuff, check here and here if you haven't already.

Here's a recent thread on oil starvation.

Your old BMW engine is likely a better engine, but obviously smaller. You could bump up the compression in that to get some more torque and such, but you may or may not come into issues with detonation depending on how that engine likes things and what gas you can run.

Last edited by klr142; 11-19-2020 at 02:05 PM..
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Old 11-12-2020, 05:13 PM   #70
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thing is the bmw engine was good, it was all revs, and i wanted to get more low down power out of the car. I was told that going to the 2.3 instead of the rear wheels lighting up when its lost grip a bit, the 2.3 would kinda just take it more in its stride.

the bmw engine also, it had all these plastic water manifolds on it, and i still think the volvo motor will make it a better car.


.. hopefully!


it did go ok though ! click here


i have a spare block, so hopefully ill get the sump off that tomorrow and have a look at that. my car has abs with the same map as the touring cars had in the uk, the brakes are unreal, and i think as im braking the oil is going forward in the sump, so defo dont want any further problems.

quite worried about modding it though, i put a xe into my lada, and i took one of the sensors out one day and there was a bit of spatter on the end of it, could have done a lot of damage.


would you also know, the dish of a b230a engine piston if its 3cc?

thanks again.
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Old 11-12-2020, 06:16 PM   #71
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I don't have any experience with the B230A pistons, sorry!
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Old 11-13-2020, 10:59 AM   #72
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Avtovaz, where do you live?
You only need three things!

Cylinder head that flows about 200cfm, that is a peace of cake at experienced porter.
Then you need compression 12:1 or bigger.
Then you need a camshaft that works in high rpm.
Also you need a intake flow, if you use microsquirt, you could use these:


Those costs about 300$ in alibaba.
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Old 11-13-2020, 02:00 PM   #73
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Jussi , those arnt allowed for my rallying, the idea is to limit the power down!


I have just measured the head, the chambers are 47cc, and i think the ratio is 11.5:1, not as low as i thought, so dosnt quite explain the low power, but have to port the head a bit and see what happens.
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Old 11-16-2020, 06:13 PM   #74
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Can you verify the piston - deck height? I think you said it was near zero. Also verify the piston dish volume if you can while the head is off. Using the zero deck height, .027" headgasket and 3cc for piston dish, I also came up with 11.5:1 compression currently.

https://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html
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Old 11-16-2020, 09:26 PM   #75
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This is the one I like too.
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