Advance/retard timing on EZ116K

[Renny_D]

I'd love to see a 6 degree option and possibly a -9 degree option.

Also I was thinking if I wanted high boost on pump gas would a series of pressure switches allow this. I'm thinking like 18psi pull 3 degrees 21 psi pull 6 degrees. Does anyone think this would allow pump gas to be used at those boost levels?

I know it the crazy world of wacky hp and rpms sometimes you need to pull lots of timing. The owner of my company was running outlaw 10.5 and having issues becuase he could not pull more than 35 degrees of timing to allow him to run more than the insane 800 shot he was running.

Speaking of options - is there anyway your tuner might be able to modify or remove the rev limiter. I know you said that neither EZK nor ECU chip control that. Could he modify or remove the offending bit of hardware that does it if he were sent a box? Lemme know.

Thanks
Renny

[wennstroma]

I have the chipped 207 box that you (fred) supplied me. I checked with my old (149) box because it was easier to access the connector with the box loose. I could try my 207 box tommorow morning, (its too busy at work now) and report back. This should help me because my car tends to ping on the california 91 octane gas (especially with the heat lately). I will probably wire up some switches on the dash so I can retard the timing manually when it's too hot outside.

Thanks for the info, Aaron

Originally Posted by Renny_D

I'd love to see a 6 degree option and possibly a -9 degree option.

Also I was thinking if I wanted high boost on pump gas would a series of pressure switches allow this. I'm thinking like 18psi pull 3 degrees 21 psi pull 6 degrees. Does anyone think this would allow pump gas to be used at those boost levels?

When you say pump gas, do you mean 89 octane?

With your setup and when using the ignition chip, you don´t have the need to retard the timing at 18psi do you? Your setup should allow you to use 18psi without a problem.

And the pressure switches seems like a nice idea. It should work, if you can change the timing "on the fly" that is. If you don´t need to get back down to the idle program or turn the power off before switching it should work like a charm.

Originally Posted by Renny_D

Speaking of options - is there anyway your tuner might be able to modify or remove the rev limiter. I know you said that neither EZK nor ECU chip control that. Could he modify or remove the offending bit of hardware that does it if he were sent a box? Lemme know.

Some of the ECU´s have a software limit and others have another chip or hardware that sets the rev limiter.

Since LH2.4/EZK works with algorithms and "targets" instead of solid maps, it should work fine just to remove or raise the limiter. It is a question of what´s "allowed" in the chip or not, and if the algorithms actually are accurate enough at those rpm´s that has not been corrected/offset in the chip. Some variables may not be accurate at higher rpm than originally calculated/set/programmed in the chip. The ignition timing has to be good and not interpolated. It might cause some unwanted effects. This is just speculations at the moment though.

I will discuss it with my tuner.

Originally Posted by wennstroma

I have the chipped 207 box that you (fred) supplied me. I checked with my old (149) box because it was easier to access the connector with the box loose. I could try my 207 box tommorow morning, (its too busy at work now) and report back. This should help me because my car tends to ping on the california 91 octane gas (especially with the heat lately). I will probably wire up some switches on the dash so I can retard the timing manually when it's too hot outside.

That also sounds like a good idea.

EDIT:// Thanks for trying the 207 as well. And take it easy with the 207 just in case.

[k4dje]

I'm not sure what box is in the car at the moment, brain lasp, I do have another box I will hook up friday and see what happens.

Unfortunatly your numbers are meaningless unless you take it out to full advance. Why did you stop at 2000 rpm?

[wennstroma]

Originally Posted by k4dje

Unfortunatly your numbers are meaningless unless you take it out to full advance. Why did you stop at 2000 rpm?

The thought was that this changed the static timing (advanced or retarded) across the rpm range (besides idle), so the rpm would not matter as long as all readings were taken at the same rpm. I will also document the readings at higher rpms (4k-5k) if this would satisfy you more.

Originally Posted by wennstroma

The thought was that this changed the static timing (advanced or retarded) across the rpm range (besides idle), so the rpm would not matter as long as all readings were taken at the same rpm. I will also document the readings at higher rpms (4k-5k) if this would satisfy you more.

Yes, I think your tests proved that grounding pin 18, pin 19 and pin 18 + 19 actually works like intended. You proved that the pins does their job. Both your test as well as k4dje´s tests were very good.

But... when comparing both of your results I find something interesting. Since you both proved that the pins actually do something, I can´t help to wonder about k4dje´s results... k4dje actually got some change in full advance.

Results from wennstroma:
Pin 18 = -3°
Pin 19 = -6°
Pin 18 + 19 = +3° - +4°

Just like "the book" says. Statical advance was clearly shown.

Results from k4dje:
Pin 18 = 0°
Pin 19 = -2°
Pin 21 = +3°
Pin 25 = +3°
Pin 18 + 19 = +8°
Pin 18 + 19 + 21 = +8°
Pin 18 + 19 + 21 + 25 = +8°
Pin 18 + 21 = +1°
Pin 18 + 25 = +2°
Pin 19 + 21 = -2°
Pin 19 + 25 = -1°
Pin 21 + 25 = +4°

(These results are interesting in another way, which I will talk about in a moment. You have to excuse me for being a little confused when you first showed your results. It may have to do with the timing light not being exact enough at higher rpm and what not.)

You evidently showed that something happened when grounding the pins, but what was actually shown? Well, it seems like you have got the timing to advance even further... And that is good. You also got something out of the other pins as well.

Theory #1:
Since our engines have a knock-sensor, it will take advantage of that. If you set the timing it will advance it but only to the point of knock. The knock-sensing circuit is very subtile when it is not under any (high) load. With bad gas or too much advance you might find that it rides on the limit of knock and stabilizes on a certain number for that gas quality (some adaptability exists in the EZK too...). That is probably why some people can get different readings (timing advance), depending on the gas quality, temperature and other limiting factors.

Theory #2:
The pins mentioned in this thread may also have another function other than statical advance... Maybe a pin or two, or some pins in combination, actually change the timing in different rpm regions and different load values as well (theory only, may not be true at all).

Look at k4dje´s numbers compared to wennstroma´s numbers and draw some conclusions. Both of them has had different setups as well (different gas etc.).

k4dje, it would be interesting to see if you get different results with another EZK number.

And wennstroma, it would be interesting to see what results you get when doing the same thing as k4dje by maxing out the advance.

[smosit]

dudes, IMHO, this has got to be one of the best threads going on right now. i appreciate everyones' imput. hopefully, i'll actually get to start my '67 w/ LH2.4 in about a week and i'll gladly add to or confirm information when i can--i'm not sure of the box that's in there right now but it came out of a '91 740 turbo w/M46.

have fun,

[wennstroma]

Tried the chipped 207 this morning. Results were similar (21,24 had little or no effect as far as I can tell). idle was always the same (13*) so i left that out of the graph. first number is 2000rpm, then 4000rpm.

no pins: 32,35
18:29,32
19:26,29-30
18+19:34-35,37-38

I did not type all the other combos because they worked the same as last time (21,24 had no effect on the combinations).

I test drove the car +3* advanced and it pings like crazy, but there is definitely better throttle response and the turbo spools faster. The a/f gauge shows it going very rich, (compensating for the knock?)

Tried -6* retarded and the car is very sluggish, but there is no knock at all.

Tried -3* retarded and there is almost no loss in throttle response/turbo spool up. There is no knock either! Before, even on 91 octane gas, I would get lots of ping at higher boost levels (15psi).

I will wire up a switch panel, but I will probaly just leave it 3* retarded most of the time.

Thanks, Aaron

[boosted12a]

just to clarify. the 18+19 combo it grounding bothe pins? or hooking the pins together? i just woke up and in a litle slow right now......

[wennstroma]

Originally Posted by boosted12a

just to clarify. the 18+19 combo it grounding bothe pins? or hooking the pins together? i just woke up and in a litle slow right now......

grounding both 18+19 advance timing 3*
aaron

[SteveMD]

god dam f-22s? Ground both the pins.

[klr142]

Originally Posted by wennstroma

Tried -3* retarded and there is almost no loss in throttle response/turbo spool up. There is no knock either! Before, even on 91 octane gas, I would get lots of ping at higher boost levels (15psi).

Awesome to hear all that! I think there has to be something wrong for you to get ping with the chips at only 15psi... What's your setup? Maybe better for a different thread actually...

[JW240]

i drove 80 miles with pin 18 and 19 both grounded, and i coulnt feel a real increase in torque. On the other hand, i recall that i thought torque was lower, but i had it in 5th gear instead of 4th when i thought that.. im rambling. but whatever, i didnt notice a real increasde, other than that it ran great. good mpg too. 7.3 l/100 km...
i just got a few extra connectors for adding the wires to the ezk.

[boosted12a]

Originally Posted by stevemd

god dam f-22s? Ground both the pins.

yea, god dam "CRAPTORS" made me miss se!, and thans to both you guys for ansering

[wennstroma]

Originally Posted by klr142

I think there has to be something wrong for you to get ping with the chips at only 15psi... What's your setup? Maybe better for a different thread actually...

I was having this problem before I got the chips, I thought the chips would help but they have just increased the amount of boost I can run slightly. I have asked fred about this and we think it is a pre-existing problem, but I have had no luck finding anything wrong. I was going to start a thread soon anyways (sorry for the threadjack) to see if anyone had any ideas so I will start one later tonight when I have more time to list the (multiple) problems and my setup.
thanks, aaron

Thanks Aaron for the time you put in to the tests with the EZK´s. It was really useful.

Now we know that pin 21 and 24 doesn´t do a thing when looking at the timing on free-rev. Pin 21 and 24 are digital outputs though, and they are supposed to be grounded to activate something... If you have read one of my earlier posts you may have seen my theories on this matter. Maybe they can do something when the car is above a certain load and rpm...?

One thing I know: They do something. The pins are connected to the chip, and the outputs are activated...

[k4dje]

I hooked up another box # 146 the results were the same as my eariler post. except the pin 18 did retard 3, I tried my current box and it also retards, However I must say that everything is subjective cause I cannot be sure I was looking at the same angle each time.

One, Grounding the pins has no effect on initial timing.

Two, The curves are speeded up and continue farther.

Three, The curves are slowed down and do not go as far

I don't know what will happen if the motor encounters knock, probably just retard per that stroke.

The dead pins I do not know but they do have 5 volts on them as do the other pins. They may do somthing under load. I might be able to get some chassis dyno time in the near future, if so I will try out the pins under load.

[wennstroma]

I checked voltage on all 4 pins on both my boxes today 18,19,21 had reference voltage around 5 volts, but on mine pin 24 had .5-.6 volts constant, did yours have 5 volts?

[k4dje]

Yes, mine had 5 volts all pins. I checked cause in an eailier post someone said they had no volts. Pin 24 and 25, 5 volts each, Both boxes. I'm getting an idea. What is the # on your box? Is it a turbo or NA box?

[wennstroma]

I just realized I may have made a mistake! I think this morning I was testing pin 24 instead of 25! I may have done this on the other box too. . About the boxes: The first one I tested ended with 149, this is the stock box that came with the car and does not have a chip in it. The second one ends in 207, fred got me this box during the chip group buy because I was not having any luck finding a "chippable" box in the junkyards here. It has his ignition tuning chip installed in it. I will test both again tommorow because of my possible mistake.

edit: they are both stock turbo boxes, fred said the 207 box came from a 98? turbo police car in sweden.

[linuxman51]

Originally Posted by frpe82

Thanks Aaron for the time you put in to the tests with the EZK´s. It was really useful.

Now we know that pin 21 and 24 doesn´t do a thing when looking at the timing on free-rev. Pin 21 and 24 are digital outputs though, and they are supposed to be grounded to activate something... If you have read one of my earlier posts you may have seen my theories on this matter. Maybe they can do something when the car is above a certain load and rpm...?

One thing I know: They do something. The pins are connected to the chip, and the outputs are activated...

wonder if they're supposed to be tied in with some sort of turbo+ setup or something...

Originally Posted by linuxman51

wonder if they're supposed to be tied in with some sort of turbo+ setup or something...

No. I don´t think so...

But maybe they are there because of different applications like racing, test, or as a standard EZK feature that is present on all makes and models using EZK as spark control. Maybe some other manufacturer uses them.

Either way, since I got my car back on the road (drivable state) yesterday I decided to continue with my mods. I have welded a new flange on my exhaust system to mate with my 18T, put in the boost controller, installed the 255LPH Walbro, a new Malpassi FPR was installed a while back to raise the fuel pressure to 4bar (58psi) to get my 46.7lb/hr injectors up to 54lb/hr and get a better spray pattern, and I also did the EZK mod.

I opened up my 207 EZK a few hours ago and soldered in some wires to pin 18 and 19 and 20 (ground). I drilled a hole in the lid of the box and put a rocker switch in the hole. I have the ability to switch between -3°. 0° and +3°. Everything is now kept inside the box. To switch the settings you have to remove the panel under the steering wheel, but hey...

Plans for tomorrow is to swap my fuel filter and put some wires in to power my boost controller. I´ll start at 20psi and work my way up.

300HP+ ethanol powered redblock FTW!

I am running 4-5psi on my 18T with a stage 2 wheel at the moment, and it feels like 10-11psi felt before with the 13c.

I might play with this on my 240 after i replace the BHG. I should turn the boost up first tho, the 13c is blowing out an amazing 4psi, spiking to 5 on the shift. (so i suppose the 17.X that isaac ran isnt so bad after all).
Then I might swap a 15g onto the car, pending investigation of ericF's offerings (hey eric btw, the 16t compressor hit the housing, its t3h junk).

[BDKR]

Great work you guys. I may start on this tomorrow or day after depending on how other things I need to accomplish go. My only problem right now is that I don't know where I would put a switch as I allready have Push Button start, fan circut kill, and two stage boost controller switches taking up the previously blank switches. I'll figure something out.

wennstroma: It is interesting that you are having such a bad problem with ping. I have the same ignition box as you and have never had a problem up to 14psi. And that's here in Florida! What turbo are you running? If it's the 13c, you're about off the island at 15psi anyways. May want to dial it back just a smidgen.

Cheers

[wennstroma]

Originally Posted by BDKR

wennstroma: It is interesting that you are having such a bad problem with ping. I have the same ignition box as you and have never had a problem up to 14psi. And that's here in Florida! What turbo are you running? If it's the 13c, you're about off the island at 15psi anyways. May want to dial it back just a smidgen.

I listed my set-up in a seperate thread I started on friday, only two people responded. I originally had a 13c with the chips but have since put a 15g on and still have the same problem. Do you have better gas in florida (higher than 91 octane)? Mike (thelostartof) said that he had no luck above 10-12 psi on 91 pump gas in my thread. Retarding the ignition 3 degrees got rid of all my knock, but it is also less responsive.

thanks, aaron