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NA, what next?

700mopareater

New member
Joined
Dec 2, 2002
Location
All over MA
Hi, my name's Mike and i'm new, looking for some ideas, info, etc. Been reading here for a while and seems there's a lot of good ideas. Well i'm pretty much done as far as i can go w/ my NA proj, and so far am pleased w/ the results, nothing super fast but a car that gets up a little bit more than you'd expect, basically this:

1987 740 GLE, M46 (rebuilt), 193,000 miles
Did all the basics, new belts, plugs (bosch platinums .30), regular oil changes, flame trap cleaning, changed diff fluid to semi-syn, going to do full synthetic on the tranny, still doing dyno on the motor (don't want to open up leaks if there are any. Basically anything electrical that could go wrong has been fixed (resoldering relays etc etc.)
So basically, the start was get it close to newish condition.

Now comes the simple stupid stuff :)

opened up the airbox, closed of the hot-valve in it so it's always getting cold air, run 93 gas (letting the EFI do its job and advance timing for me), free-er flowing exhaust , cat, + downpipe. popped off the sway bar endlinks on a hill 8) so i replaced those and made a set of busings (half poly, half metal).

Basically i've wound up w/ a car that runs very smooth and has a good feel on the powerband. It also makes a damn good contender to my friend's 88 dodge daytona :evil:

Ok this is where i run out of ideas on what to do. I think i've done as much simple stupid stuff as i can possibly do to this car w/in my budget. So i'm looking for more simple stupid ideas, my problem is i'm a college student, so cash is short. Not looking to do anything so far as lightening flywheels etc, that's beyond my skill level right now. I'm willing to get pretty greasy though. Just looking for good cheap ideas that will make the car keep up better and still remain a good daily driver. Oh, and the occasional bench race, just 'cause i can't afford to doesn't mean i haven't had a few dream blocks up in my head 8)
 
Thanks

new_dude2.jpg


Gotta thank gary donnovan for that one

Not sure if i want to do nitrous, though it is CHEAP power, then again, do i really want to stoop to rice levels, then again with so much rice around a crowbar could probably get me some NAWZZZ even cheaper then again...
 
[quote:f8c0855f77]Find someone with a K cam for cheap ... [/quote:f8c0855f77]

I have one, maybe two...maybe more...how much is cheap? :lol:
 
Hehe, cheap is as cheap as i can possibly get it! I'm not sure, really, would i have to have it machined for the rear-distributor? That's the main thing that's been holdign me back as far as a cam goes, also i'm trying to keep a fairly smooth idle. Not that i'm being picky, i wouldn't mind something a little lopey sounding :D i'm just nervous about how it will affect the colder mornings. Also i'm curious about this V15 i've been reading about.

Any real life experiences?
 
apparently the V15 is rather similiar to the K-grind... specs wise (the V16 is closer... a tiny bit wilder, so the K is between the two)

From all reports so far, the idle on the V15 is silky smooth (comparing stock M (NA) cam to the V15, noticably smoother...

The cam runs about 240-260 direct from Enem (jan.c@enem.se - www.enem.se the price varies, based on exhange rate...) and should be about 225 in a group buy (I will run one sometime later this month... I'm waiting for more results to trickle back in from the 10 people in my first group buy, and my own, which will be installed in 2-3 weeks... cant wait!

The V15 aka Phase 1 sounds cool and all (so far it has!) but I'm waiting till I get solid results... 1. more popular 2. I'm not group buying lemons, the first group consisted of people who understood the risks and were willing to put up with alot of crap.

btw the V15 comes with the slot for the rear-mounted dizzy...
 
Welcome!

There are actually a decent number of people here running the V15 now, I have heard nothing but great reports. If you plan on sticking to a NA platform and don't mind a little lope, I'd look at something a little more agressive like the narrower-lobe centered Phase 2 (basically an old Non-turbo spec unitek 268). I personally think the Phase 1 is pretty tame for an NA engine. Then again i'm the sort of guy who thinks jalapeno flavoured toothpaste is a good idea... but I digress...

A cam would make a lot of sense for where your car is at. Another thing is that die grinder bits are cheap, so if you wanted to get adventurous you could look at clenaing up your head a little. Me, doug and possibly some others have pics of out ported heads you could work from (actually i need to put mine back up again).

Now, one thing you did not mention is if yuo're up for turboing your existing engine. :twisted: Might cost you 300-500 bucks total, but might do you 50-80hp.

You know, I bought an NA car once.... drove it for 10 minutes then proceeded to tear it apart for operation turbo...
you just gotta have one. :wink:
 
OK, i'm starting to think a cam is on the Xmas list :lol:

Porting and polishing i might hold off on until the summer when i have a steady job again, but it is something i've been interested in for a while (good time to do more preventative maintainance too)

Turboing... ohhhhhhhh i want one, i want on REAL bad. Honestly i'd be nervous w/ the block though, which means i'd have to do some swap outs of internals :D i'm just afraid of snapping a rod i guess. It's an interesting concept, and i know it would take some work, problem would be with the money. But turbo... soo nice, boooooost. Driven a few boost influenced cars (s60 2.4t, audi tt, a couple of pontiac GTP's [ok, different kind of boost, but still good stuff]) and i loved it, it's just such a good feeling when it kicks in. But i just had to have a blue (blue cars go faster, ya know 8) ) volvo, and i couldn't find a good turbo piece w/in my price range (i heard some really interesitng sounds on the ones that were in my price range). I dunno, it'd be interesting to do. I mean, considering there's megasquirt out now, i guess doing some kind of improvement like that would be feasible... ok that's it. Dropping out, working on the car all day. Well, at least i can pretend i'm doing that. AAAA now i've got boost on the mind. I actually haven't worked on anything turbo before, been all NA volvo, mopar, alfa, vw. I'm finally gonna get my chance, friend just picked up an 87<?> 2.2l tic shelby daytona, so we're gonna be rebuilding that. Maybe i can figure out enough w/ that experience how to do a redblock turbo conversion.
 
Well, I advocate a method...

Locate an entire B21FT/B23FT/B230FT (90+) motor, rebuild it and assymble it on an engine stand, then swap it...

the 86-89 B230's arent great... it'd be best to put together a entire turbo motor : any 90+, and pre 1985 bottom end will do , any 530 turbo head (86-95, must be turbo for the sodium filled valves) put together (may have to do some machining to get the CR right... but a turbo block/head combo 90+ and its manifold and injection is really the best foundation...

alot more straight forwards than messing with a NA motor... especially with alot of miles... but then if you just swap the head to a turbo 530 and change the pistons (which need to be changed with that high mileage) and bolt on a turbo/manifold/IC... that'd work...

its all in budget/skills/space/time
 
Grabbing a manifold/turbo, a computer, turbo injectors, an intercooler and tapping oil lines would definately be easier and TONS less money than swapping in a turbo engine. Given you dont have low compression of a turbo, but it is definately the cheapest way to go to get a few more ponies out of your car. it can probably be done for $500 easy, if you know what youre doing.

Just a thought.
 
"Well, I advocate a method...

Locate an entire B21FT/B23FT/B230FT (90+) motor, rebuild it and assymble it on an engine stand, then swap it... "


Easy easy easy. IMO, you can only advocate a method if you've done it. Especially to brand new posters.

But either way he said he's broke right now not looking to buy a second engine and fully rebuild it. I "second" secondtwigs sentiments.
His bottom end is weak, but with the high compression he won't be able to run enough boost to make enough power to kill it. He'll detonate first.
 
Steering away from the talk of adding a turbo etc. and back to some very cheap and simple mods for a minute. I'm also on a very tight budget with my NA project, and I've been looking at doing various similar things to you.

I cut the front out of the airbox, a single muffler exhuast (no cat) is coming soon, and I'll be putting in a 3.91 rear end soon. One mod I just did is an electric fan conversion.

There's a lot of talk of this mod, some people spend hundreds on aftermarket fans, others like myself do the whole job for next to nothing.

I got a big Bosch aux pusher fan out of a BMW 733i, used a radiator hose adaptor out of a Saab 900 for the thermo switch, a Saab 900 switch, a relay out of a 760, relay socket I picked up at a junkyard, a toggle switch I had lying around, a $5 light from an auto parts store and the whole lot was put together with used Volvo wiring and sheathing.

Total cost was very low, it cycles on and off automatically, and I fitted a light to the dash to tell me when the fan is running (Although you can usually hear it anyway). I also put a toggle switch under the dash so that if the thermo switch or wiring fails I can manually control the fan to get the car home.

I would be happy to send my circuit diagram to anyone who's interested.

As to how much power you will gain, I 'm not too sure. The engine revs a little more freely now, and taking off seems a little smoother. The car is slightly more responsive as well. I haven't taken it for a really hard run yet so I don't know what change it has made in the high RPM range.

Just another budget mod to consider.
 
Ya, really in all honesty building a motor is fairly easy if you've done them before, can be mildly expensive, if you have good contacts and your motor can get away w/ being honed and you have a good place to do it.

Pulling a motor and putting it back in isn't to bad either, but it really can be a pita sometimes.

Oh ya, don't pull those damn freezeplugs!
 
Electric fan conversion, that one slipped my mind, to be honest. Seems like a good idea, could you send a schematic my way? It definately would give me a good excuse to go to the bone yard!
 
Kenny...

[quote:24440ab817]Easy easy easy. IMO, you can only advocate a method if you've done it. Especially to brand new posters.[/quote:24440ab817]

Actually I have. :shock: what a shock.
I got this:
http://www.pbase.com/kalazdar/engine_extract
into this:
http://www.pbase.com/kalazdar/engine_insert

I cleaned every square inch of that motor. I completely rebuilt it, brought it pretty darn close to specifications and it is one smooth runner today. (too bad I didnt know then that you can make volvos faster... would have done the ultimate swap...) and I gotta tell you, FROM EXPERIENCE, that you do a better job rebuilding a motor when its out of the engine bay. You clean it, you inspect every square millimeter of it, you ensure that its machined properly and is strong. Nothing beats a balls-out rebuild of a engine (machine shop check and smooth surfaces of bearings and cylinders, seals, etc etc)

However it is a major PITA because your car does not volvo (latin for roll) when this is in progress... hence my thought of pulling a motor from another car and rebuilding it slowly over time (a head rebuild kit is only 50 bucks, pistons 250 bucks, bottom end rebuild kit about 90 bucks... machine work... depends. if you stretch it over time, the engine really doesnt cost all that much and you know it like the back of your hand and best of all, its a new engine.

After its all built right, you can put it in. All portions of this process is on your own timetable and whim, lessening the stress of having a car out of comission... and giving you a bit more time to do some shopping and engineering to ensure it works right.

A 90+ donor sounds to me the best/easiest engine to pull... has all the goodies on it that is a great foundation of a good, fast, reliable motor.

Build it right the first time.
 
Hey man. We're talking about mods and adding a turbo vs. swapping in a turbo motor, that method, not the method of rebuilding. The method I was referring to was about wether to swap in a turbo motor or convert. neither of which you have done. We weren't talking about rebuilds.
 
[quote:cf9777ec57]Oh well.....u will never beat Z28s with that NA[/quote:cf9777ec57]

If i learned anything from my 240 experience, it's that anything can be done when either (a) the z28 doesn't know what's happening (b) the z28 is driven by a first year driver, at which point it goes no where (c) you sneak under the z's hood and "accidentally" pull the coil wire :twisted:

Not that i would know...
 
hmm. Isnt it a given that the act of rebuilding a motor is the same till the tips of the exhaust and intake manifolds?

anyhoo, it just seems to make sense to me to build up a turbo motor on your own time on a engine stand and then pop it in when the time is right... that'd give you alot more power/reliability/fun and miminizes the time the car is off the road... this is what I am going to do with my own car.

BUT sticking with NA isnt something to be ashamed of. really.

Gearing, lightening rotational mass (flywheel, wheel/tires, driveshaft, electric fan conversion, no PS/AC, maybe underdrive, etc etc), header, properly sized exhaust, a wilder/torqueyer cam, fixing the air-box, perhaps some headwork... sure its not going to be as powerful as a turbo but still quite liveable.

hey how about this? why not find a pretty complete B21FT and fix it up a little (if needed) and put it in? that should be relatively simple and with that incredibly low compression, you could turn up the boost crazy... that'd be simple enough.

"How much money will you go?" ~Carrol Shelby

as for the Z28... :twisted:

as for not rebuilding my car... the right way

UGH! DONT REMIND ME!
 
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