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Old 05-11-2019, 09:53 PM   #51
2turbotoys
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Thanks! It has a VX cam, so hopefully it will be a bit more hp than that haha. Do you block the vacuum line to do that?
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:00 AM   #52
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I'm pretty sure you plug the advance hose and it needs to be at operating temperature. I always set mine closer to 14 and ran good gas.
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Old 05-12-2019, 03:07 PM   #53
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Your description of how the car drives is how an old kjet car I had acted when it had low fuel pressure. The pump on the car was intermittently failing. The pump pressure would drop after a few minutes of running but not low enough to make the car stall. It would drive like it had no acceleration. When the pressure failed it was something like 45psi system pressure instead of the proper 65-70psi.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:10 PM   #54
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I was wondering about the fuel pressure also. The pump underneath looks new, but it's black plastic so probably a piece of junk. Everything I have seen about testing the fuel pressure looks like a pita with non available tools. Might be easier and less annoying to just replace the pumps.
It may have been pretty hard on the pumps when the relay was arcing, turning them on and off quickly a million times in a row...
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:25 PM   #55
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I have the OE Volvo fuel pressure gauge and adapters available for rent or you can build your own.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:35 PM   #56
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I would definitely be interested in renting the tool, I don't need to own one, since I decided that this car is getting a full build and that will not include KJet...I would like to get it running well first since I want to drive it as is for a while.
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:42 PM   #57
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I rented the tool, should be here soon.

Today I installed a wideband, and it is running so lean under even light acceleration the gauge is pegged on lean (18 is where it stops, so I get --- on the gauge)
I'm installing an in tank pump because it's cheap and easy, hoping it will help. I'm looking around for a decent in line pump since I don't think the car can handle the 340 lph pump I have on the shelf. Hopefully the problem is not in the mess of crap under the intake manifold haha
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Old 05-18-2019, 09:26 PM   #58
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Got the fuel pressure tool, hope to use it tomorrow. I threw new fuel pumps in, which made a fractional improvement. Now the wideband can read the afr at part throttle, at the very leanest edge of lean. Full throttle is still over 18 though.

The frequency valve thing is not working apparently, no vibrations or noise from it.
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Old 05-19-2019, 09:40 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2turbotoys View Post
Got the fuel pressure tool, hope to use it tomorrow. I threw new fuel pumps in, which made a fractional improvement. Now the wideband can read the afr at part throttle, at the very leanest edge of lean. Full throttle is still over 18 though.

The frequency valve thing is not working apparently, no vibrations or noise from it.
Check the frequency valve socket, I had some issues with that before I Frankenstein:d my car. I could shake it and it would work, it wasn't making contact inside the socket. I replaced it with a parts store socket and it solved my problem.
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Old 05-19-2019, 01:58 PM   #60
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Thanks, the socket had a very damaged terminal. I spliced a B230 fuel injector plug on to replace it. Cooling off for a few then back to it.
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Old 05-19-2019, 03:52 PM   #61
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Frequency valve still not coming on. I decided to do the diag on the o2 system again, ended up at F3, no voltage on the system sensor relay terminal 86 (blue wire), F5 Voltage at aux air valve connector. I checked the blue wire on the fuel pump relay, had voltage. Noticed the relay was very warm, so I popped the cover off and saw this:

Black and crunchy solder directly to the left of the K21 marking, a bit hard to see in the pic.

So F5 told me to "repair wire from CI system pump relay to sensor system relay terminal 86" All the exposed wiring wiring looks fine, and the sheathing isn't damaged anywhere.

Trying hard not to get really frustrated with this CIS stuff, not easy though
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Old 05-19-2019, 09:23 PM   #62
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*loading parts shotgun*...

Throw K Jet in the scrap pile and megasquirt EFI is what I'm starting to lean towards. I don't even know what way to look now. Ya I have to check the timing but since there is an obvious fueling problem why bother till the fuel is sorted out.

Is there a point to doing the fuel pressure test? I already know it has a problem, almost no fuel is reaching the engine apparently. It's not the pumps. The stupid frequency valve isn't working but I can't find an explanation for what it does in simple English. Seems improbable it is causing this much chaos though. My ohmmeter fried so I will get another tomorrow to see if it's good but still...

What should I do next? The only guy who works on this ancient stuff near me retired a while ago.
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Old 05-19-2019, 10:16 PM   #63
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If the frequency valve is not operating then the O2 sensor and control unit are not managing mixture and you will be rich. High fuel pressure out of the Control Pressure Regulator will lean out the fuel.

The fuel pressure regulator in the fuel distributor lowers the appx 90 psi pump pressure to about 70 psi. The CPR regulates that pressure based on engine temp. Feeds about 20 psi (rich) back to the fuel distributor with cold engine. Raises the pressure up to the low 40's (lean) with a warm engine.

My Bertone's CPR was feeding the 70 psi back to the distributor and creating a very lean mixture. It is off to visit the CPR spa in Texas at the moment. They are repairable by DIY efforts but I gave up after having it off and on more times that I wanted to think about.

If the O2 sensor/frequency valve is not operating you are delivering higher than needed pressure to the injectors driving it rich.

You probably have both problems but they will not cancel themselves out.

That's really all the CIS does. Is that simple enough?

Much more info on the CIS system here: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=289775
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Old 05-19-2019, 10:44 PM   #64
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Thanks for the help! I guess I need a frequency valve and CPR then, gives me an idea where to point the shotgun. O2 sensor is new, but fuel pump relay is obviously a very poor design and I need to buy a 3rd new one, and do the Dave Barton fix (relay to run a relay )
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Old 05-19-2019, 11:13 PM   #65
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The relay driving a relay is a great idea.

Lets not pull the cannon lanyard just yet. Measure the O2 sensor operation. If that is moving between 0.4v and 0.8v then verify that the ECM is supplying battery and a pulsing ground to the frequency valve. If you see that and the valve is not vibrating have it cleaned. It is just a fuel injector that any shop that cleans such should be able to do. Because of the semi unique fuel line connector that may be a little more difficult than I said.

After you get that done . . . .

CPRs are a little expensive. $200 for a rebuild, $400+ for a new one and somewhere between for an unknown used one.

You have a pressure gauge in hand now. What is the Control Pressure cold/hot? What is the system pressure. That will tell you where to go next.
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Old 05-19-2019, 11:31 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2turbotoys View Post

What should I do next?
Sit down and breathe for a bit. People keep telling you how to check things out, and you keep saying "nah, I'm going to throw parts at it".

Are you using a greenbook for your diagnostic procedures? If not, find it and read it. I don't know where it may be online these days, with the chaos. The greenbook Kjet section has a thorough description of how to check out the whole system. Among other things, you would use the pressure testing rig. Yes, there is still a reason to check pressure. It is basic to the system.
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Old 05-20-2019, 07:39 AM   #67
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'75 forward CIS Greenbook - https://greenbook-archive.s3-ap-sout...3ebccd3e0a4198

Section 2 - https://greenbook-archive.s3-ap-sout...6651508cbbf396

More than you ever wanted to know.
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:30 AM   #68
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Thanks, I have been using my Greenbooks for the O2 sensor diagnosis. I did put a new O2 sensor in because the last one was very crudded up.

I will test the pressure and report back, and see who around me cleans injectors.
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:51 AM   #69
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From other thread:
Go to this site: https://ozvolvo.org/archive/archive.php
and look for this file: TP30454-1_k-jet_ci_system_b19_b21_b23.pdf
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:42 PM   #70
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Kjet is a mechanical fuel system unto itself. It doesn't need the lambda system to run. Lambda(o2) system is an added on unit to the system to more accurately control the mixture on kjet.

So what you do to approach troubleshooting kjet is to make sure the mechanical fuel injection parts that would be there if it didn't have lambda are good. Then move on to the lambda system.

Otherwise you may have mechanical fuel system problams along with lambda problems that can be very frustrating to get sorted.

I work on this stuff and am not that far from you but I would need help getting to your place to work on the car.
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Old 05-20-2019, 10:46 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dl242gt View Post
Kjet is a mechanical fuel system unto itself. It doesn't need the lambda system to run. Lambda(o2) system is an added on unit to the system to more accurately control the mixture on kjet.

So what you do to approach troubleshooting kjet is to make sure the mechanical fuel injection parts that would be there if it didn't have lambda are good. Then move on to the lambda system.

Excellent advice. Good luck with it.
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:07 PM   #72
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Great point! Helps me focus a bit. I know in EFI the O2 sensor circuit can only change the mix a small percentage, maybe 10% or so. If the fuel pressure test doesn't reveal the problem, I would definitely help get you here and back, plus make it worth your while.

I didn't get a chance to work on it today, which is probably good, so many hours in it with nothing to show made me freak out a bit. Usually that much work ends up with a result haha. Fresh start tomorrow.

Thanks for the input and patience as always guys.
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Old 05-21-2019, 04:26 PM   #73
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I tested the line and rest pressure:
The line pressure is correct at 4.5 kp/cm^2
Rest pressure after pumping the pressure back up, shutting off fuel pump, flipping switch to position 3 = 3 kp/cm^2, Geenbook says minimum is 1.7 so that seems ok also.

Cold control pressure: 1.5 kp/cm^2
Warm control pressure: @ 5 minutes 3.3, at six minutes 3.4 kp/cm^2
I'm not sure if those are good numbers or not. Ambient temp is about 68 deg F if that matters.
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Old 05-21-2019, 04:50 PM   #74
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Warm control pressure is a little low, it should be 3.7. The bimetal spring in the CPR is also affected by engine heat so it may come up to spec on a running engine.

Have you pulled the injectors to check flow and spray pattern?
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Old 05-21-2019, 06:41 PM   #75
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The warm test called for 5 minutes, I gave it 6 and it seemed to be going up still, so it makes sense it would be better on a warm engine. All the other numbers sound good?

I have not pulled the injectors to check that, I guess I should. I don't have a graduated cylinder anymore but can find one I'm sure.
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