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Old 03-31-2019, 11:45 PM   #1
MCHN8
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Greetings everyone!

First post here in what will hopefully be a relatively quick project. Many thanks for the wealth of information in this group.

It's a familiar story: A lovely 245 meets a handsome 5.3 and the pressure gets turned up. She's not getting any younger. He's only a catch for a few more years, and so it goes.

So far we have a roller, an 8.8, and cleaned up block. I'll do my best to document things here.

Pics or it never happened:







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Old 04-01-2019, 09:25 PM   #2
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Old 04-02-2019, 12:35 AM   #3
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Chicks dig LS 245's...
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Old 04-05-2019, 11:24 PM   #4
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Nice wagon. Always loved that color! The tribes of palos verdes, did you buy this volvo 240 from them, Lol
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Old 04-06-2019, 04:25 PM   #5
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Chicks dig LS 245's...
oh how i wish that was true
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Old 04-07-2019, 12:39 AM   #6
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Nice wagon. Always loved that color! The tribes of palos verdes, did you buy this volvo 240 from them, Lol
Cheers! Didn't know about that movie, but yes. I think the answer is yes.

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oh how i wish that was true
The perks of being married! Invisible is good. Nothing to see here.

The scavenger hunt has been in full effect. We stumbled across a Bertickup in Morgan Hill and Volvo yogi in Boise. Good times, and found some much needed parts for the new interior, gauges, cosmetics, and various fasteners. Pretty stoked on these:









NOS Tach!








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Old 04-07-2019, 11:02 AM   #7
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So much potential in that small Volvo/VW/GM yard...who’s hoarding???
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Old 04-07-2019, 01:04 PM   #8
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So much potential in that small Volvo/VW/GM yard...who’s hoarding???
That was in Boise. A cool Father/Son hobby yard. Not sure if they're on the forum.
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Old 04-07-2019, 09:12 PM   #9
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I feel the distinct urge to rescue some 142s and 145s...
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Old 04-07-2019, 09:34 PM   #10
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That was in Boise. A cool Father/Son hobby yard. Not sure if they're on the forum.
That yard looked familiar- I know someone who has a youtube channel who visited and toured the place (I believe he's a member). IIRC the owner has a really awesome 142GT?
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Old 04-07-2019, 10:43 PM   #11
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Yep, and a clean amazon.
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Old 04-07-2019, 10:58 PM   #12
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What’s his username?
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Old 04-30-2019, 10:41 PM   #13
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It was great meet crew at Davis. Cool crowd, a friendly and sharing bunch, and definitely a day of inspiration and ideas. Many thanks!

Slowly but surely this project is getting traction. The short block is done and built to handle way more than I intend to push through it.









Also found a decent 8.8 and have it cleaned up. The goal with the rear is to copy the coilover conversion some of the guys have been doing. I'm tempted by watts link and may go that route eventually but a panhard bar will be fine for now.





Kinda funny, someone signed the smeg under the car back in 95


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Old 05-05-2019, 11:12 PM   #14
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Your 5.3 and 8.8 are both looking great. Nice progress so far!

Turbo wise, I'm thinking that a GTX4088R or GTX4294R will be perfect for your goals with this car. Talking within the Garrett catalog of course - if you go elsewhere I'm not offended. I'm not sure if you spoke with Erik (cosbysweater) at Davis but he is running a GTX4202R on his blue sedan, and seems to love it so far. Both of the GTX42 variations share the same turbine wheel and can use any of the 4 turbine housing A/Rs available. The difference is on the compressor side; 94mm exducer vs. 102mm exducer (shortened to "02" in the name). Your power requirements are a bit lower meaning that the smaller compressor is probably a better match.

The 4088 is smaller on both compressor and turbine ends, and also runs a smaller 10mm ball bearing system so the whole unit is more compact. I'll have to dig a bit deeper into some simulation work to give you a definitive answer on which would be better between the 4088 and 4294, but at this point I'm pretty sure either would work well.
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Old 05-13-2019, 12:13 PM   #15
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Cheers Chris! As you know I will defer to your turbo recommendation any day.

I lurked and snooped around Erik's car but did not get to meet the man. Definitely impressive! If I understand correctly he is putting down near 1k whp? That would be well above my goals given that my car will be a "family cruiser". Plan A is to keep it around 650 - 700 whp with as early a spool as possible.

Assuming we go with the 88, roughly what range of potential output would you expect? The car will be set up for E85.
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Old 05-13-2019, 12:21 PM   #16
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I heard rumors at Davis of an OEM Ford bracket kit for the Explorer 8.8 that allowed for SN-95 Mustang rear calipers and vented rotors. Digging around it looks like these might be the right parts, but I also heard something about different bearings and axle shafts? Am I on the right track?

https://www.americanmuscle.com/musta...acket-kit.html



https://www.americanmuscle.com/power...tt-mach-1.html

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Old 05-15-2019, 02:30 PM   #17
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Cheers Chris! As you know I will defer to your turbo recommendation any day.

I lurked and snooped around Erik's car but did not get to meet the man. Definitely impressive! If I understand correctly he is putting down near 1k whp? That would be well above my goals given that my car will be a "family cruiser". Plan A is to keep it around 650 - 700 whp with as early a spool as possible.

Assuming we go with the 88, roughly what range of potential output would you expect? The car will be set up for E85.
Hey Nate - I'm not sure of Erik's exact power lately...paging Cosbysweater...

Regarding the GTX4088R, with a well-flowing intake system and running E85 I think it should be capable of around 900hp at the flywheel, as an educated guess.

Looking at your power targets I'm going to call 700whp ~ 825bhp (at the flywheel) before driveline losses.

For E85 at that power output it looks like mass airflow would be around 70 lb/min at 6500 rpm. Using a conservative estimate of engine VE and BSFC I'd expect pressure ratio of 2.2. With ~95% VE you'd be around 1.95 pressure ratio (lower boost to make the same power).

Plotting these points on the GTX4088R compressor map puts you to the right of center, and maybe low 70% range for compressor efficiency. That's at peak power however. For nice driveability in a road car it's OK to sacrifice a bit there in order to bias peak performance in the engine midrange. In this case I think you'd hit peak compressor efficiency around 5000 rpm at full load. It looks like a nice match.

I haven't had the chance to do a full simulation yet, so none of this takes the turbine into account, and therefore I'm not able to predict your boost threshold rpm ("spool point") yet but I can say that a 4088 should be more responsive in transient conditions (throttle and load changes) vs. a 4294, all else being equal.
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Old 05-15-2019, 03:35 PM   #18
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Is that your 61 olds? Seen it on cl a few times.
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Old 05-15-2019, 06:44 PM   #19
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For E85 at that power output it looks like mass airflow would be around 70 lb/min at 6500 rpm. Using a conservative estimate of engine VE and BSFC I'd expect pressure ratio of 2.2. With ~95% VE you'd be around 1.95 pressure ratio (lower boost to make the same power).

Plotting these points on the GTX4088R compressor map puts you to the right of center, and maybe low 70% range for compressor efficiency. That's at peak power however. For nice driveability in a road car it's OK to sacrifice a bit there in order to bias peak performance in the engine midrange. In this case I think you'd hit peak compressor efficiency around 5000 rpm at full load. It looks like a nice match.

I haven't had the chance to do a full simulation yet, so none of this takes the turbine into account, and therefore I'm not able to predict your boost threshold rpm ("spool point") yet but I can say that a 4088 should be more responsive in transient conditions (throttle and load changes) vs. a 4294, all else being equal.
Oh great turbo whisperer!

If I understand correctly we would be on the edge of the %70 efficiency island and thus have the higher efficiency area at lower flow rates aka regions "normal" drivers are in "most" of the time. It looks like surge won't be an issue but we may get closer to choking the turbo?

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Is that your 61 olds? Seen it on cl a few times.
I wish, it's a beauty!
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:54 PM   #20
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If I understand correctly we would be on the edge of the %70 efficiency island and thus have the higher efficiency area at lower flow rates aka regions "normal" drivers are in "most" of the time.
Yes, exactly!

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It looks like surge won't be an issue but we may get closer to choking the turbo?
A little closer than you'd be with a 4294. Garrett defines the "choke line" at 58% efficiency, but full-on choke (where the flow goes sonic) won't happen until efficiency has dropped quite a bit more and may be closer to 90 lb/min for the 4088. It won't physically choke at lower pressure ratios but at 2.2 it probably would. The physical choked flow boundary is not shown on the map due to that 58% standard cutoff though. The speedlines go towards asymptotic vertically and stack up on each other.

In the real world if you had a fully instrumented turbo and reached physical choke conditions, you'd see turbo speed increase exponentially for little to no change in boost pressure. This is what happens with an inlet restrictor upstream of the turbo, as used in WRC and other rally series and some road racing, but that choke boundary is moved left quite a bit and truncates the map significantly...assuming the restrictor diameter is smaller than the housing inducer diameter.
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Old 05-17-2019, 12:49 PM   #21
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Speaking with some of the current aftermarket folks about this, I was referred to the G42-1200 Compact as potentially the best available choice. I keep forgetting that this was just recently introduced. Kind of a clean sheet design that straddles between where the old GTX4088R and 4294 were positioned. Packaging wise I think it's very close to the old 4088, but flows more like the 4294. New high flow / low inertia turbine wheel for improved response as well. The 40 was built on an old architecture with some idiosyncrasies that the G42 addresses nicely.

Turbine inducer is still 88mm like any other 42. Compressor is 73mm inducer / 91mm exducer. So in the traditional nomenclature this would be a "4291." Good ratio between turbine & compressor wheel diameters means the operating speeds should be well matched to each other.

Handy outline drawing showing dimensions and available flanges: https://www.garrettmotion.com/wp-con...0-G42-1450.pdf

Main product page: https://www.garrettmotion.com/racing...-1200-compact/

Looking at the match, at peak power you'd be much closer to the center of the map on this one vs. 4088. That would translate to lower boost for the same power level, and reduced stress on the system at that same level. This turbine will also help reduce exhaust backpressure as it will be operating at a lower expansion ratio.

My guess is you wouldn't give up much (if any) boost response vs. the older GTX4088R.

Edit: surge line is very close between the two so it wouldn't give up any real margin either.
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Old 05-17-2019, 04:32 PM   #22
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Talk to me Goose! There's nothing like the results from some good iterative product development to make a Smurf tumescent.

Comparing the maps it's pretty amazing how much fatter the efficiency islands are, and %78 > %70

Heck it doesn't choke for a full 30+ lb/m more flow.



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Old 05-17-2019, 04:48 PM   #23
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Yep! It's a much newer compressor stage; add 10+ years of product development that has occurred since the original GTX compressor wheel design, put it through a rigorous development process, and it comes out quite nicely. Seems like the guys in the aftermarket group have done a quite thorough job of addressing lots of stuff that customers have requested over the years.
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Old 05-17-2019, 05:25 PM   #24
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Cheers Chris! As you know I will defer to your turbo recommendation any day.

I lurked and snooped around Erik's car but did not get to meet the man. Definitely impressive! If I understand correctly he is putting down near 1k whp? That would be well above my goals given that my car will be a "family cruiser". Plan A is to keep it around 650 - 700 whp with as early a spool as possible.

Assuming we go with the 88, roughly what range of potential output would you expect? The car will be set up for E85.
hey there! didn't have a chance to meet everyone there this year. the car by my estimation and weight is making around 600ish whp at 12lbs of boost. the gtx4202r is a great turbo for what I use the car for. instantly build boost and pulls clean to redline. im swapping to a 5.3 and a real turbo cam so it will be interesting to see what it does. 600whp is no joke though its a insanely fun car to drive.
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:02 PM   #25
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hey there! didn't have a chance to meet everyone there this year. the car by my estimation and weight is making around 600ish whp at 12lbs of boost. the gtx4202r is a great turbo for what I use the car for. instantly build boost and pulls clean to redline. im swapping to a 5.3 and a real turbo cam so it will be interesting to see what it does. 600whp is no joke though its a insanely fun car to drive.
Hey Erik, cheers! Yeah I shamelessly took spy shots of your car. Thank you.

I'm in the Bay area too. If you're ever around SFO and bored I'd love to chat 5.3 turbo stuff. That's the route I'm going. Tick Stage 1 Turbo Cam. It's been a while since I built a pressurized car so climbing the learning curve again. What EFI are you running?

Looks like I was confused regarding output, and agreed on the fun part! My old track car was around there and never stopped reminding me how important tires are.



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