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83' K-Jet Turbo: Terrible, awful gas mileage.

MikeB23ft

New member
Joined
Nov 12, 2002
Location
Columbia SC
I'm getting 8-10 MPG out of my 1983 245 turbo/M46 and I have no idea where to start looking. K-Jet. Ugh. I did some reading but I'm still lost.

I just installed new plugs, wires, cap, and rotor. This resulted in a major improvement in the way the car runs and idles, but the gas mileage is still the pits. I have checked for vacuum leaks, but didn't see any. Besides, the car idles fine.

It has a bit of an odd smell when running, and the inside of the exhaust tip is charred black. I think it may be running very, very rich. Is there a way that I can check the adjustment of the fuel distributor and air flow sensor to see if the car is just getting too much gas?
 
First check if the frequency valve is operating, should have a constant buzz at idle after warm-up. Does it run fine when warming up when cold?
If it's buzzing and continues to buzz as you increase throttle but the buzzing sound changes significantly, check the fuel pressure. If it drops significantly from the 78-80 psi then it will run rich like that. Bad pump, FPR or WUR. among other potential problems could cause that. Check the O2 sensor. Check the temp sensor in the head that enriches the mixture when it warms up.
 
Like you said, vacuum leaks are bad news for kjet. Double check that. Buy or make a fuel pressure gauge to make sure your control pressure regulator,etc are working right. You'll just be guessing unless you check fuel pressures.
 
The oxygen sensor controls the frequency valve: is there any chance that a bad oxygen sensor is causing all of these problems? If so I'll just replace that thing.

I will go listen for buzzing from the frequency valve now.
 
There's a connector off the firewall that can measure the dwell of the frequency valve. Once it goes into closed loop fuel from the O2 sensor feedback it should be ~58 deg if the O2 sensor is working and the fuel dizzy a/f plate is adjusted correctly.
On warm-up it is in open loop for a while and gives maximum fuel through the WUR and head vacuum temp valve, if that vacuum valve circuit fails to close, the car will run pig rich.
I don't believe a failed O2 sensor will cause such rich conditions, but will run richer than it should.
 
Sorry to thread jack.

My valve buzzes quickly when cold, but once it warms up it stops buzzing... Weird? Milage is very poor. Found the 02 was disconnected. I connected it back up and my mileage dropped even more...
 
The frequency valve is driven by the lamdba ECU - it should be buzzing at all *times*, even on a cold start.

If it isn't then either there is not power getting to it, or the fuel mixture is so far off base the ECU won't drive the freq valve.

It will run at a preset if there is no 02 sensor is connected - so the frequency valve is always being driven by the ECU , the ECU will just go into a
base mixture preset mode to let the car run if the o2 sensor is not connected. A shorted 02 sensor will also cause a full rich condition.

Other variables : Bad CPR (control pressure regulator).. few other things but if the car runs strong then I'd wager and say the fuel pumps are fine.

The oxygen sensor controls the frequency valve: is there any chance that a bad oxygen sensor is causing all of these problems? If so I'll just replace that thing.

I will go listen for buzzing from the frequency valve now.
 
k-jet stage zero. I've typed it so many times...just search on setting idle, timing and base mixture. Verify tps is set and working, check fuel pressures. basically, if all that is in spec, kjet works great.

Oh, and the B21FTs were originally set up to run on 87 octane (hence low boost, compression). Many won't simply because of carbon build up. Once it's running properly, if you can clean things out (sea foam), the B21FTs I had always got better mileage with mid-grade, so long as I kept the boost down. Lower octane = higher energy density.

Jordan, you'll find that especially true at Edmonton altitudes. Experiment with fuel, if you trust your ear to tune for knock. The engines are stout, a little knock won't hurt, so long as you're not also running lean!
 
I was thinking realistically, even with a bum O2 sensor, 10 mpg is pretty bad. Something else has gotta be going wrong. I'm about to order a new O2 sensor and air filter, since I don't know when they were last changed and I'd like to just cross that off my list.
 
Check your compression and then verify that the Lambda computer is getting power from its relay, which is in turn powered up by the main fuel relay, which are known to give trouble.

Honestly, I would check the compression first. I know a guy who had similar issues with low mileage and he only had about 80 PSI in all cylinders due to worn rings.
 
Honestly, I would check the compression first. I know a guy who had similar issues with low mileage and he only had about 80 PSI in all cylinders due to worn rings.

Well. This is horrifying. I do already have a compression tester, so I can do that for free.
 
Hi Mike,

Was the fuel mileage bad before you replaced plugs, wires, etc?? When you replaced the parts, did you mess with ANY of the vacuum lines??

Reason I ask is because I did a head swap and in the process of hooking vac lines up, I switched two critical lines and I had same 10mpg, rich running, very stinky car. Once I hooked the lines up properly the car ran fine. So...were any vacuum lines replaced or fooled with? Don't give up....

Bob
 
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Bob- I didn't really have the car long enough to check the mileage before I replaced the parts. I didn't mess with any hoses, with the exception of pulling the turbo hose to the intake manifold when I removed the #1 plug. I will say that the car runs a good deal better after I changed the parts. If it's just a vacuum leak I will be thrilled, especially after the idea that this compression check might yield bad results. In that case I don't know what I'll do.
 
Many B21fts are pretty tired. They've been hacked, neglected and misunderstood by most/all for about 10+ years without a dime put into even determining exactly and repeatably what the car needs, what was overlooked in the past/damaged and what it will need I the future before parts cannons are fired and getting distracted with what it doesn't need happens. Before the last 10 years even, few mechs spend the time and few owners had the money to repair them in logical, large, preventative chunks like many required to wind up with a good solid all around far at age 30 (hard enough to do as is). Tough motor but time takes its toll, sitting or running (usually running fairly badly). Many 240t there isn't much left and it's a huge time and money sink at best.

I saw a mech actually trying to "tune up" a motor that made a little odd noise and idled smoothly. He spent 2-4 hours trying and sruggling to "dial it in". At that point, i gently suggested a basic compression and leakdown test and it was found to have 90-100psi. A phone call was made to the fairly clueless kid who fairly recently bought this heap someone gleefully (whoever sold it was probably laughing themselves silly that someone came and got the roach heap) offed on him actually confessed that previously he brought it somewhere else and it started with 80-90 psi on all holes and compression "improved" to 90-100 after surfacing and pressure testing the head, grinding the valves and replacing the head gasket.

And this is a fairly typical cycle Internet or not. In denial about what owning a 30 year old car that's a little bit of a rare one is going to possibly really need at the best of times, trying to be cheap, take a couple places and get a jumble of opinions, get distracted and buy some wheels and swag or god knows what, do things 2-3 times over, avoid getting at the root causes and making a set in stone plan.

It's pretty pointless to speculate. Compression, lean down, pressure test. Determine lambda function, fuel tank condition and pump function, vac leaks/hoses, catylst stuffed up? And so on.

Correct size tires, tire pressures, wheel bearings good, belly pan intact, alignment, dragging brakes (30 year old octopus and all that crap? And 6 rubber hoses with 10 pistons?).

At sea level timing set decently right (12-14), in good tune a stick shift turbo isn't going to be a hyper miler driven normally all stock in good repair all around. 15-25 more or less depending would be expected. 20-30 not so much. 10-15 not so much either.

Many people get caught up naming their thread "kjet 240t problems" or "kjet problems." Really it's more like "30 year old roach coach odd model 240t neglected, beat down with hack work and no pressure gauge or basic sniff out of the basic condition of the car or engine"
 
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I dunno, most redblocks (even the b21ft) I've had even tired could manage to eke out even 20 MPG highway with the KJet in proper order.

530k b21f from 1979 244 faithfully pulled 25MPG highway.
343k b21f in my present 1977 245 gets 27MPG highway.
b21ft in 1984.5 244Ti w/ 404k would get 25MPG highway - i did refresh the cylinder head on it though.

These are all M46 cars.

Most b21ft's I've had even the crappy running ones could do 20MPG, and those were the AW71 cars. So I'd not condemn this one yet .. These are tough assed motors unless this thing has been fed fuel wash mode from an over rich, faulty KJet system and the motor has scrubbed itself to death from that..
 
True it probably shouldn't be getting 10mpg even if it's pretty thrashed.

A lot of the b21fts here are pretty scrubbed to death. Worth testing rather than being in denial/ignorance.

I think it's age/neglect as much as anything. The people that put money into these cars to much of any degree actually drive them. I've had plenty that people ran the death out of and didn't do any proper upkeep on be tired worn out junk at 20 years/under 200k, and ones that had 4-500k still be pretty ok and quiet and working mostly se they should.

At age 20 it was a bit of anomaly that they'd *need* a motor kinda tired and noisy but working usable so sure maybe, but at age 25-30 without a dime put in them runninG wrong strung along for 5-10 years most good quality parts gone, most older mechs that knew them or cared retired, most that bought them were not planning on the required major refresh and continued usual upkeep. Quite a different game when looking to acquire one and have it work as it should.

Most of the time little major mix adjustment should be required. Usually, really, injectors are worn out, and other wear items are contributing to this need for "adjustment" that, by in large, should be corrected at the root causes.
 
Sooooooo back on topic......

Having browsed the thread.... OP.... Truly horrible fuel economy in a K-Jet turbo car implies that air is getting measured... Fuel is getting delivered.... Air is getting compressed but that a portion of the compressed air is managing to find it's way to atmosphere rather than being stuffed into the cylinders with fuel.

As is always good practice with any K-Jet car....... Check for vacuum leaks! This is part of your 'Stage Zero.' Once you've fixed all of them.... Yes; you are going to get to do the injector seals as they always leak. ALWAYS. Clean the sealing surfaces up to spotless and install with just a dab of grease so the O-Rings slide into place nicely. That little o-ring wants to roll over otherwise. You'll see.

That's done? Seal up the inlet side of the turbo and pressurize the intake with regulated air to ten pounds or so. Be sure that the oil cap is off so you don't blow out oil seals. We're looking for that leak that opens up with pressure in the intake. Perhaps a hose that needs to be tightened or an intercooler that is split just enough that it doesn't show up until under boost.

Off you go! Report back.
 
Bad CPR (control pressure regulator)

From experience (1/4 tank of fuel to go 30 miles) my vote is that fuel is getting past the diaphragm into the intake. Pull the vacuum line and give a sniff. If it is as bad as mine was, sniffing will not be necessary. I was amazed that the car would run with that much fuel dumping into the intake. ;-)

http://www.k-jet.org/articles/information/k-jet-in-detail/#5

The vacuum hose is on the back side of the regulator, facing the block. Follow it up to the junction (hidden behind the intake manifold on mine) where it will be easier to get to. FCP had them five years ago. I just looked and they do not list one on the web site. It might be worth giving them a call, just in case. They are not inexpensive.

Found Special T Auto rebuilds them:
http://www.specialtauto.com/warm-up-regulators.html

Note the $250 core charge!

One more edit -- as I recall now, there was also gasoline dumping directly out of the regulator. That was the "clue" that lead me to it. Dangerous situation. Strange that I wouldn't remember that up front.
 
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There is a CPR rebuild pictorial hidden somewhere here on the forum. There is nothing that breaks in there, just might get corroded or compromised by trash getting through the fuel filter. Really simple to take apart and clean.
 
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