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Old 10-02-2016, 05:50 PM   #1
Fretka
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Default Terrible wheel hop, can't lose it

Hello, guys!

Sorry for making a new thread if this is discussed somewhere already (it must be), but I couldn't find it.
I've experienced pretty terrible wheel hop then and now lately. Weird thing is that I didn't have it before for a long time with same setup. I thought it's my rear shocks that were worn. Changed those but still everything is the same.
Probably it's useful to mention that rear shocks are from way different car, much stiffer and almost twice shorter because of how low the car is to achieve better shock absorber travel.
Springs are from different car aswell - shorter and stiffer than original ones.

All the diff and axle bushing look fine for me, except one that is in lower end of panhard bar. Could that be the case? Somehow don't want to believe it.

One more thing that makes me think is that panhard bar is not shorter or adjustable, so the axle is in offset because of lowering. Could that be the case?

Anyways, thanks for any suggestions. Have been reading about wheel hop that it can be caused by A LOT of things. I know that I need to make everything on poly bushings all around sooner or later because of drifting, but haven't had time to do it yet.

Lastly - wheel hop appears pretty randomly. Mostly it's when you are loosing grips on straight line, more rarely when going sideways, but it still appears sometimes. Then I just let it go, kick the clutch again and it has disappeared.

Think that's about it.
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Old 10-02-2016, 06:21 PM   #2
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Need to give us some info on car, setup or you won't get any help
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Old 10-02-2016, 06:48 PM   #3
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Sorry!

'91 944, dead 1041 axle, B200FT turbo-back 70mm pipe, 16t turbo, 0,8bar boost, welded diff
I would say that car is lowered about 120mm by original height, so rear axle is offset really badly.
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Old 10-02-2016, 09:44 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fretka View Post
Sorry!

'91 944, dead 1041 axle, B200FT turbo-back 70mm pipe, 16t turbo, 0,8bar boost, welded diff
I would say that car is lowered about 120mm by original height, so rear axle is offset really badly.
120mm is like a 5 inches drop and you wonder why you have some wheel hop?
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Old 10-02-2016, 09:54 PM   #5
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120mm is like a 5 inches drop and you wonder why you have some wheel hop?
This.

Fix your dimensions and try again.
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Old 10-02-2016, 09:55 PM   #6
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There is not much more then five inches between the bottom of engine crossmember and the ground in a standard 240.
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Old 10-02-2016, 10:00 PM   #7
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Poly is NOT the answer. It doesn't have enough give when the axle articulates. It just puts stress on your mounts. I've been slowly changing all my bushings out for heim joints. I recently swapped out my stock torque rods with a custom set with heim joints at both ends. They have a little more vibration through the chassis. But they have gotten rid of any wheel hop.

My plans so far are to go with dual heim joints on the torque rods. Poly bushings on the lower control arms (main axle bushings) and a custom heim joints from frame to front of lower control arms. I feel this will keep the axle planted in place, but allow for up and down "flex" of the suspension. I've read that the main axle bushings can cause lots of wheel hop when worn out. That might be the first place to look
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Old 10-02-2016, 11:49 PM   #8
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And that welded diff probably isnt helping either when taking tight turns
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Old 10-02-2016, 11:55 PM   #9
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I got terrible wheel hop in my car with an ez locker installed, put in a g80 and it went away...I'd bet its a combo of the welded diff and panhard being out of adjustment if car is that low with a stock bar
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Old 10-03-2016, 12:50 AM   #10
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Back in the day I picked up a new set of tires and on the drive home I had horrible wheel hop when I got on it. Turned out the tire shop overfilled the tires with to much pressure.

Check the tire pressure it might just be to high. Keep it Simple to start.
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Old 10-03-2016, 02:06 AM   #11
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Are your shocks attached at both ends? Have you shucked a weight on your wheel(s)? Has one of your tires separated a belt internally?

I've had all of the above contribute to come and go wheel hopping while driving under normal circumstances, at different times, with different cars...
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Old 10-03-2016, 02:23 AM   #12
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It sounds to me like the entire setup is bad.

Geometry is bad.
Diff is welded.
No up travel, all droop.
Unknown dampeners.
Unknown spring rates.

It's like world class companies hire engineers to design these cars and their suspension so this kind of thing doesn't happen.
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Old 10-03-2016, 03:05 AM   #13
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Thanks for answers. I hear what you are saying, I think first thing is to get my rear axle straight by installing adjustable panhard bar.
I don't see how welded diff would affect this since LSD works the same way while doing skids.
There is up travel, shock absorber travel is how it's ment to be, just way shorter and more stiffer then original.
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Old 10-03-2016, 08:09 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fretka View Post
Thanks for answers. I hear what you are saying, I think first thing is to get my rear axle straight by installing adjustable panhard bar.
I don't see how welded diff would affect this since LSD works the same way while doing skids.
There is up travel, shock absorber travel is how it's ment to be, just way shorter and more stiffer then original.
Well clearly you know all of the answers. Glad you asked us for advice.
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Old 10-03-2016, 08:30 AM   #15
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Sounds like you have two different size tires.
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Old 10-03-2016, 10:11 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fretka View Post
Thanks for answers. I hear what you are saying, I think first thing is to get my rear axle straight by installing adjustable panhard bar.
That is one thing....I'm not sure how you prioritize what you've got going one here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fretka View Post
I don't see how welded diff would affect this since LSD works the same way while doing skids.
You don't??? Ok...


...Seriously???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fretka View Post
There is up travel, shock absorber travel is how it's ment to be,
If this ^^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fretka View Post
just way shorter and more stiffer then original.
Then not this^^^

Get some properly valved dampers, with proper springs. I had a 940 SE (IRS) with stock replacement, but still rubber bushings, and my wheel hop went away with proper dampers and springs from BNE. And the IRS cars are more suseptible to wheelhop than the solid axle cars. But....I wasn't dragging my cross-member either.
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Old 10-03-2016, 01:30 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fretka View Post
Thanks for answers. I hear what you are saying, I think first thing is to get my rear axle straight by installing adjustable panhard bar.
I don't see how welded diff would affect this since LSD works the same way while doing skids.
There is up travel, shock absorber travel is how it's ment to be, just way shorter and more stiffer then original.
You also haven't mentioned if you have adjustable torque rods either, if you slammed this car without fixing the pinion angle, you might be mistaking some of the wheel hop with driveline noise.
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Old 10-03-2016, 03:10 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doucheNozzle View Post
Well clearly you know all of the answers. Glad you asked us for advice.
Funny how everyone responds to my questions in Turbobricks every single time. Of course - slamming car is stupid, drifting is for kids, doing custom parts is stupid aswell.

Just in case someone is still interested in some answers or any kind of continuing about this, here it is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogly View Post
Sounds like you have two different size tires.
Tyres are all around 215/40/17, running about 2,1bar all around. Now tell me that the tyres are too low aswell (:

Quote:
Originally Posted by runslikeapenguin View Post
You also haven't mentioned if you have adjustable torque rods either, if you slammed this car without fixing the pinion angle, you might be mistaking some of the wheel hop with driveline noise.
I know about the driveline noise, most of it is felt on 2nd gear.
  • And seriously, I know when car loses grip and when it doesn't. Those are two different things.
    Wheel hop differs when drifting on wet and dry aswell, to be mentioned.
  • Wheel hop appeared only this year and nothing was changed in setup. Everything worked perfectly at the start - custom springs, custom shocks - everything. Yes, I know that it's hard to believe, but it actually worked and there was no wheel hop. How do I know? Because I wheel spinned the **** out of those tyres for past and this season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjam83 View Post
You don't??? Ok...


...Seriously???
No, seriously. I don't see how wheel hop should appear when pushing full throttle going sideways or on transactions, since LSD locks both wheels 100% when on throttle. I'm open to your explanation and waiting for it.

Guess it's important to mention that wheel hop itself is generally called when your wheels jump up and down when loosing traction. I'm not talking about wheels hopping when I'm parking my car or turning in small radius, that's not a wheel hop technically (if not technically, then I'm not talking about it in this thread).

I've done many cars with welded diffs, custom spring, shock absorber setups and it hasn't been so terrible like this. Allthough none of those cars had dead axle.
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Old 10-03-2016, 03:17 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fretka View Post
Funny how everyone responds to my questions in Turbobricks every single time. Of course - slamming car is stupid, drifting is for kids, doing custom parts is stupid aswell.

I've done many cars with welded diffs, custom spring, shock absorber setups and it hasn't been so terrible like this. Allthough none of those cars had dead axle.
You sort of just answered your own question.
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Old 10-03-2016, 03:23 PM   #20
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Quote:
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You sort of just answered your own question.
Thanks!
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Old 10-03-2016, 03:24 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fretka View Post
Thanks!
Stop being upset for a few minutes and think about whats different between an IRS and a Live Axle?

Hint: The driveshaft angle doesnt change on an IRS car.
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Old 10-03-2016, 03:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Athlon View Post
Stop being upset for a few minutes and think about whats different between an IRS and a Live Axle?

Hint: The driveshaft angle doesnt change on an IRS car.
Eh, okay, one more time.

Yes, I admit that first thing I need is adjustable panhard. Think I mentioned before that that's what I'm going to do next.
I guess the questions where stupid enough to get stupid answers.

I'll update this when the wheel hop will be gone, just in case someone here drives welded diff and custom springs, because can't afford Kalphenke coilovers for 1,4$ and aftermarket LSD for 500$.
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Old 10-03-2016, 03:31 PM   #23
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Jebus. Why make a thread when your ego gets in the way?
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Old 10-03-2016, 03:38 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fretka View Post
Eh, okay, one more time.

Yes, I admit that first thing I need is adjustable panhard. Think I mentioned before that that's what I'm going to do next.
I guess the questions where stupid enough to get stupid answers.

I'll update this when the wheel hop will be gone, just in case someone here drives welded diff and custom springs, because can't afford Kalphenke coilovers for 1,4$ and aftermarket LSD for 500$.
The panhard bar goes left and right. Not tilting the nose up and down.
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Old 10-03-2016, 03:47 PM   #25
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The panhard bar goes left and right. Not tilting the nose up and down.
Can't really understand your sentence. If it's because of coilovers I mentioned - well, yeah, you can ride a boat and hope not to roll over, then you don't need to move the panhard at all, because it's perfectly centered with stock suspension.
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