home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > projects & restorations

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-15-2018, 01:36 PM   #601
Harlard
Pro Sneaker Peddler
 
Harlard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: PDX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Rick View Post
An MS2 v3.0 will do sequential injection and COP spark.
Put in a Peak&Hold board and use any injectors you want.
It won't do high res injector scaling, boost by gear, or be particularly fast. Just because the features exist doesn't mean that the implementation will be good, per se.
__________________


Herr Harlard am Erstens

1979 242 DL

Quote:
Originally Posted by t8fanning View Post
My knob has a big chunk of steel on it
Harlard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2018, 05:12 PM   #602
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Aptos, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiggy Pop View Post
Yes, I'm running semi-sequential fuel and wasted spark on my 242. 1kcc injectors paired on two outputs in conjunction with (4) d514a coils. I ran batch fuel the first year with micro then changed.

I was having a persistent issue with an rpm specific lean swing around 3k rpm. I cannot tell you how much time I spent chasing this, both through tuning and with hardware troubleshooting. You can ask Kenny how many emails we exchanged on the subject. After some discussion with Bobxyz on here I switched to semi-sequential on the fuel side. After making that change and doing a bit more tuning the issue is not completely eliminated but smoothed out to the point it is negligible for me. I did not notice any other major changes in the way it ran, but was also very focused on a specific issue.

It's worth noting that the issue above was not present when I ran the car with batch fuel and stock spark on a stock block. It presented after I put in a built motor and a big ported head with 48/40 valves. My well-running batch fire setups were just as smooth as the current semi-seq configuration in my opinion.

I spend a lot of money on my hobbies but there's other places on the car I think the $900 would have bigger payoff. If I keep the car I'll upgrade the micro eventually, but in the meantime I believe that all of my current minor complaints about the way the car runs are the result of my own lack of interest in tuning rather than any sort of inherent limitations with the setup as built.
That's good info, thanks. I'm with you on spending a lot on hobbies, but preferring to spend it efficiently.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2018, 05:40 PM   #603
cosbySweater
Board Member
 
cosbySweater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Monterey/Falun
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post
Another thing I just realized - the ms3x is only like $700, vs $1300 for the ms3Pro. If ms3x does all the sequential stuff I might want, why wouldn't I get that. I guess I didn't realize there was a step between Micro and Pro.

TL;DR: Listen to Erik?
Just do ms3x. It's expensive yes but the car will just be so much easier to deal with. 300-400 bucks extra over micro. What will that amount of money net you? Is 400 dollars worth tearing your hair out over? Lol
__________________
1979 Volvo 244DL 6.0/4l80e,8.8,Ms3x goldbox ecu and Mircrosquirt tcu, s366 clone, 11.4@123mph 9psi
2005 Honda Civic Hybrid, 5 Speed
1991 Volvo 245, so stock it hurts, and I like it that way
1982 Ford Fairmont Futura, 4.8/th400, 8.8, mircrosquirt, 7875 turbo, 228/230 cam, Project Cheap Thrills

Quote:
Originally Posted by bricktop420 View Post
Thank you very much everybody... i now feel sufficiently retarded and will go cry in the corner...
cosbySweater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2018, 05:47 PM   #604
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Aptos, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosbySweater View Post
Just do ms3x. It's expensive yes but the car will just be so much easier to deal with. 300-400 bucks extra over micro. What will that amount of money net you? Is 400 dollars worth tearing your hair out over? Lol
Yeah, but I'm not totally psyched on the DIY style of the ms3x compared to the sealed case and nice connectors on either the Micro or the ms3Pro.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2018, 06:17 PM   #605
cosbySweater
Board Member
 
cosbySweater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Monterey/Falun
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post
Yeah, but I'm not totally psyched on the DIY style of the ms3x compared to the sealed case and nice connectors on either the Micro or the ms3Pro.
Then do this
https://www.efisource.com/wp/shop/ms...on/#ecu-option

950 for the box and wayyyyyy better customer service then diy autotune. Also I don't know if you have been on the Ms forums but they seem to have been having alot of issues with the ms3 pro and Evo boxes lately. Even issuing a recall on them
cosbySweater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2018, 07:54 PM   #606
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Aptos, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosbySweater View Post
Then do this
https://www.efisource.com/wp/shop/ms...on/#ecu-option

950 for the box and wayyyyyy better customer service then diy autotune. Also I don't know if you have been on the Ms forums but they seem to have been having alot of issues with the ms3 pro and Evo boxes lately. Even issuing a recall on them
This looks promising. Josh was telling me about the issues with the newer MS3Pros.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2018, 08:23 PM   #607
cosbySweater
Board Member
 
cosbySweater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Monterey/Falun
Default

I use the gold box with trans control on my 244, currently setting it up on a lt5 and going to start on a f20c swap with the gold box as well. They are great and Mike is so awesome to deal with
cosbySweater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2018, 09:49 PM   #608
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Aptos, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosbySweater View Post
I use the gold box with trans control on my 244, currently setting it up on a lt5 and going to start on a f20c swap with the gold box as well. They are great and Mike is so awesome to deal with
That's super cool to hear. It looks like with a harness, it ends up still over $1000. But like I was saying, it's not necessarily the money, but spending money on something that isn't great. Like an ms3Pro that is unreliable.

To be honest, I'm pretty sure I'd be happy with a Micro on semi-sequential, but for the amount of stuff I've had to redo on this car, I'm sick of cutting corners. I'm going to look into the Gold Box thing.

Luckily, I've got my LH running 12ish psi and it's liveable. That gives me some time to collect all the parts I'll need.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2018, 12:04 AM   #609
cosbySweater
Board Member
 
cosbySweater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Monterey/Falun
Default

I will extend this offer as well, I have made good power with lh, depending on what you decide to do I know for a fact lh is reliable for a 300hp combo and I know how to wire and setup the Ms. If you want help with what is currently in you car I am more then willing to drive up and spend a day with you on it. Same goes for the Ms as well.
cosbySweater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2018, 02:49 AM   #610
FreeEMSFred
Board Member
 
FreeEMSFred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Kiwiland
Default

"It won't do high res injector scaling" LOL, what the hell is that? :-p

Tfrasca, sequential is heavily overrated. If you tune the injection timing it can produce a preferred result, depending on your preference, but if not timing-tuned then you might not get what you want.

On the flip side, if you have randomly timed (but timed, not oddball, not sure if MS does this) semi sequential injection, AKA bank/batch of 2 twice per cycle, then you get some fresh fuel mist and some vapour off the hot valves, and you get smoothness by default.

The biggest genuine reason to run sequential injection is having huge injectors where doing two pulses per cycle really hurts your real world error size.

Also, make sure you use something with the modern VR circuit, the stuff in old microsquirts was the same as the V3 board (ms1/ms2, what terrible naming) and is pretty much useless. The modern circuit (as used in all of my projects) is automatic and if configured correctly on the PCB pretty much perfect for any scenario.

Data point for you: I've been running semi sequential and pseudo wasted spark (4 Toyota COPs) on my B234F swapped 240 sedan for months now. Coils have held up to firing twice, once into a near-dead-short (highly ionised exhaust gas) fine despite only taking a guess at the dwell.

If a new style MicroSquirt has the new style VR, f*** the haters, and do what you want. I assume Deka 60s are 60lb, about 700cc/min, if so, you'll be okay at idle firing them twice, or even firing them once in a crappy pattern (can give an uneven idle due to different effective mixture from fresh fuel in some cyls and evaporated vapour in others, but won't wander and have error like the semi setup can).

As much as I hate all of those products for a thousand solid reasons, if you know what you're doing you can get good consistent results from the junk and enjoy your car for less dollars down. It won't be a redo scenario unless you do something dumb.
FreeEMSFred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2018, 07:24 PM   #611
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Aptos, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosbySweater View Post
I will extend this offer as well, I have made good power with lh, depending on what you decide to do I know for a fact lh is reliable for a 300hp combo and I know how to wire and setup the Ms. If you want help with what is currently in you car I am more then willing to drive up and spend a day with you on it. Same goes for the Ms as well.
I really want to go MS after looking into it. I'd like to learn a bit of tuning, and I'd love to get rid of the distributor, coil, and clean up some wiring. I'm still considering just doing semi-sequential on Micro, so I don't need to set up a cam angle sensor. Either that or the Gold Box.

But I'll for sure hit you up once I've got it all wired up. I have no idea how to tune one of these things. Thanks in advance!
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2018, 02:15 PM   #612
cosbySweater
Board Member
 
cosbySweater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Monterey/Falun
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post
I really want to go MS after looking into it. I'd like to learn a bit of tuning, and I'd love to get rid of the distributor, coil, and clean up some wiring. I'm still considering just doing semi-sequential on Micro, so I don't need to set up a cam angle sensor. Either that or the Gold Box.

But I'll for sure hit you up once I've got it all wired up. I have no idea how to tune one of these things. Thanks in advance!
For sure man!
cosbySweater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2018, 06:16 PM   #613
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Aptos, CA
Default

Not much in the way of updates for the car. I've been driving it and more or less enjoying its current state.

Last week, the brake booster went out. I think it's been on its way for a long time, based on my braking performance and some weird vacuum leak symptoms that I was never able to trace. That'll be nice to fix.

Astro informed me that the perfect .73 5th gear for the T5z is not available and there's no solid date to expect them. So that's a drag. That means me gear choices for that transmission are .82 and .63. .63 MIGHT be acceptable with my 4.3 rear axle, but it definitely wouldn't work with any taller final drive. The .82 will probably be pretty bad with my current final drive, but might work if I ever went down to 3.73 or similar. Not sure what to do about that.

Once I figure out the transmission thing, I'll get what I need for MS, and order a GT2871r or 3071r. That'll be fun.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2018, 12:52 AM   #614
Harlard
Pro Sneaker Peddler
 
Harlard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: PDX
Default

Skip the 28, go for the 30. Also, .63 on a super short rear end would be fine. A lot of the time I wish my overdrive was taller.
Harlard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2018, 09:29 AM   #615
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Aptos, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
Skip the 28, go for the 30. Also, .63 on a super short rear end would be fine. A lot of the time I wish my overdrive was taller.
Yeah, I'll do the 30 I think.

What's your overdrive now, .68? I think .63 on the freeway would be cool most of the time, but I know I'd get in some situations where I'm between gears. Actually, that only ever became an issue when I did that Coastal Range Rally, where we were on some pretty fast country roads, and moving pretty quickly. That's not a super common situation for me, but when it happens, it's annoying.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2018, 03:39 PM   #616
Uncleknucklez
bruspeed
 
Uncleknucklez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sacramento, CA
Default

.68 5th, with 300ish HP on tap, not really an issue on the freeway I would think.
__________________
1980 242 Turbo
2004 V70R

Uncleknucklez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2018, 06:16 PM   #617
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Aptos, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncleknucklez View Post
.68 5th, with 300ish HP on tap, not really an issue on the freeway I would think.
My current T5 World Class has a .68. The T5z has an even lower .63.

But I've been looking at the gear calculator obsessively, and my cruising speed at 3k would go from 73mph with the .68 to 79 mph with the .63. Not too big a deal. The gap just gets bigger with taller rear gears, though.

At this point, I'm just going to do it and hope for the best.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2018, 06:22 PM   #618
Uncleknucklez
bruspeed
 
Uncleknucklez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sacramento, CA
Default

I cruise right at 79-80 MPH at 3k. It’s really a good spot imho. Everything smooths out in my car at 3k anyways sooo. Lol.

Last edited by Uncleknucklez; 06-07-2018 at 06:36 PM..
Uncleknucklez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2018, 09:05 PM   #619
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Aptos, CA
Default Intake manifold brace

When Noah and I fixed my cracked manifold, we put an M8 threaded boss in the plenum for some bracing. Today, I finally got around to designing and making a brace. What I came up with is a straight 1/8"x3/4" piece of steel, welded to a 90 degree bracket that bolts on using one of the oil separator bolts. The other end just bolts to the side of the plenum, near runner #3.

I'm wondering how stiff this needs to be. The stock one is thinner material, but has a rib rolled into it for stiffness. Still, it can't be much stiffer than what I've made. Is there such thing as too stiff for a manifold brace? How does thermal expansion play into all this? Should I try to make this brace stiffer?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_2167.jpg (63.7 KB, 190 views)

Last edited by Tfrasca; 06-10-2018 at 09:40 PM..
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2018, 06:48 AM   #620
FreeEMSFred
Board Member
 
FreeEMSFred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Kiwiland
Default

If it were under tension anything would work provided you didn't put it into yield. But that's under compression.

I'm guessing it'll be okay provided you can lock it with no preload so it's a brace not putting any force on anything in the resting position.

At the end of the day what you're trying to do is take the strain off the studs/bolts in the head with something like 6:1 leverage from the mass of the plenum. For that purpose, it should do fine IMO.
FreeEMSFred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2018, 09:36 AM   #621
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Aptos, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeEMSFred View Post
If it were under tension anything would work provided you didn't put it into yield. But that's under compression.

I'm guessing it'll be okay provided you can lock it with no preload so it's a brace not putting any force on anything in the resting position.

At the end of the day what you're trying to do is take the strain off the studs/bolts in the head with something like 6:1 leverage from the mass of the plenum. For that purpose, it should do fine IMO.
Yup, it's got zero preload in its resting position. Originally I was thinking of using a jack screw so I could dial in zero preload accurately, but just welding up a bracket seemed to work just fine. Thanks for weighing in. It's off the powder coater this morning.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2018, 01:52 AM   #622
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Aptos, CA
Default

It's been a bit since I did anything cool to the car. I have been doing stuff, but mostly to make driving it daily more enjoyable. Also, sorry for the ****ty photos. Photobucket just sucks.

The brake booster finally went out, so I got a new one from Hi Performance Auto. It's cool that this part is still available. While the booster bracket was out, I welded up the seam in the bottom, in hopes that it would help keep some noise out of the cabin. It did nothing.



At least the booster looks great and works well.



I bought a brand new T5z in hopes that some of the T5 noises would go away. They did not, but I love the gear ratios in the T5z, and it's nice to have a brand new transmission.



I also took that time to upgrade the clutch to a Yoshifab billete flywheel and a 235mm disc/pressure plate. I had some issues with cable adjustment, and it turned out that the stiffer pressure plate was compressing the rubber grommet at the fire wall. I replaced that grommet with a thick washer and now it's working well. It's a bit stiffer than stock, but it should hold 350+ lb ft and it engages nicely for daily driving.



With some help from friends, I got the new trans and clutch in by 7pm on a Sunday, then Dave and I drove it from SC to LA first thing Monday morning. It worked out. Cruising at 80 mph and 3k rpm is nice. Not having AC in triple digit temps over the Grapevine was not nice. Here's a picture that our friend John took on Highway 2 in the Angeles National Forest.



While we were down in LA, I dropped the car off with Eric and Ian to have them put in a True Trac. This is such a mandatory upgrade. It's super predictable and smooth. With my 4.30 rear end, I can still break the tires loose pretty much whenever I'm below 50 mph, but with the LSD, it's easy to anticipate and control. I forgot to tell them I had a Lube Locker gasket on the diff cover, so I put another one on when I got it home. I also just wanted to see it for myself.



Since my new T5z didn't quiet the drivetrain up, it was time to look at driveline angles. The trans is pointed down a lot, which needs to get addressed. But pointing the axle up a bit would help get all the operating angles closer to each other. So I made my torque rods adjustable with a jack screw and some weld in LH/RH bungs. I lucked out, because I almost made them too long. You can see in the photo, they're basically bottomed out. That got me to a suitable angle at the axle. Interesting thing I had never thought about before: you can't use a split lock washer on LH threads! I took those out and got some spring washers instead. Go figure.





The more appropriate operating angles didn't fix all my driveline vibrations. I have an Aerostar slip yoke with the rubber bonded damper on it, but that won't fit unless I drop my trans down a few more millimeters. And that'll make the front u joint operating angle even worse. I may try it anyway. The ideal solution would be cutting more of the tunnel out so I can raise the trans AND use the yoke, and then also coming up with a custom center support that can be moved. That way I can adjust all the angles. We'll see how motivated I get. I really thought I'd be done with transmission stuff, and on to turbo/microsquirt by now.

Last edited by Tfrasca; 07-25-2018 at 11:09 AM..
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2018, 03:33 AM   #623
t8fanning
8v are still cool, right?
 
t8fanning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cedar Hills, UT
Default

Looking good. Can you describe your vibrations? Are they at a specific RPM? Do they happen on accel or decel?
__________________
1982 242 Turbo.
t8fanning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2018, 09:25 AM   #624
Uncleknucklez
bruspeed
 
Uncleknucklez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sacramento, CA
Default

Truthfully, I wouldn't bother with damper if it means you cut the car again. These trans are just flat out noisy, No real getting around it.

Mine buzzes on decel from 2900 rpm to 2500 RPM with properly adjusted angles and an Aerostar dampener.

This is a quality update, with lots of shiny parts! When do I get a ride???

Last edited by Uncleknucklez; 07-24-2018 at 10:11 AM..
Uncleknucklez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2018, 09:34 AM   #625
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Aptos, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by t8fanning View Post
Looking good. Can you describe your vibrations? Are they at a specific RPM? Do they happen on accel or decel?
The vibes are worst in 5th, decel at about 2500 rpm. Apparently the exact same thing Chris has. I also get rattling/vibration in 3rd and 4th at decel at any rpm higher than 3000 rpm. There's obviously the rattle at idle, as well. But I think that could be tuned out with a slightly richer idle once I go MS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncleknucklez View Post
Truthfully, I wouldn't bother with damper if it means you cut the car again. These trans are just flat out noisy, No real getting around it.

Mine buzzes on decel from 2900 rpm to 2500 RPM.

This is a quality update, with lots of shiny parts! When do I get a ride???
I doubt I'll cut the tunnel again just for the damper. Lately I've been having thoughts of trying to find a whiteblock, and starting over entirely. I'm going to try to avoid that, but if any more cutting happens, it'll be for a whiteblock swap.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:48 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.