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Rich At Boost

Fumomike

New member
Joined
Sep 29, 2016
Location
Valdosta, GA
Hey guys I think i posted this before but it had too many complicated information for you guys to look at. I've spent the past few months enjoying the car with the current setup and gathering my thoughts.

I have TLAO chips in my 1990 760 Turbo Wagon.
Using stock(ish) injectors at 15 lbs of boost
3 inch 960MAF.
19T Coldside, 15G Hotside
VX IPD Cam
No boost leaks w/ pressure test
straight piped 2.5 inch DP(its very quiet when having all the bends to the back of the car)


So basically, The car is quick but just not quick enough. Its like 85% of what i'd like for it to be amazing. Im almost there to what I will be satisfied with. It is very quick on cold days and slow on hot days. However, I don't expect the car to be fast on hot days. I just want it a little faster.

AFRs on the onset of boost(at WOT) I see 13s. Past 6 lbs of boost(by feathering the pedal) the AFRS drop down below 10. I have a gut feeling that it's around the 9s which means that there isn't any misfire but the car is not as fast as it can be. Any increase past current boost levels I hear pinging.

So what can I do to make it a tad faster? Unless I get someone to custom tune my car or have some sort of device to do it myself, I will be stuck with these AFRs :(.

I was under the impression that stock injectors w/ 3 inch MAFs make it richer at high boost?

Whereas If I have Bosch Green Giants w/ 3 inch MAF it will be better or worse? You guys told me on my previous threads that it will make it richer? However, Im questing the scaling of the injectors to the MAF. It won't make it leaner? What injectors would you suggest? Maybe slightly higher at 350cc or so? I think I'll be happy at 18-22 lbs of boost.

In the past, I put 650cc EVI deatschwerk injectors in there and it was Rich to the point of misfire.

Currently, I am daily driving a 2004 S60R w/ methynol at 25lbs of boost(I bought it used for 3k$~). It is faster but just doesn't feel as fun and have RWD torque like my rear wheel drive 1990 Wagon. Plus my 1990 Wagon is much more comfortable, doors sit lower, has an automatic transmission, a really powerful audio system, better turning angle due to not being AWD, and softer suspension. The S60R is super hard on bumps because the previous owner put sports shocks on it and it has a STAGE 2 CLUTCH! (which is almost a nightmare to drive!). I can kinda tell that Volvo had its golden years in the 1980s-1994s, the cars nowadays are just not as good as the previous ones(imo)

I want to make Betsy(90 Turbo Wagon) faster. Please help me. I've pressure tested the car like twice and there are no obvious boost leaks(Unless its in the cabin behind the dash or something). Im going to duck tape my CBV to be sure but I highly doubt it will help the rich AFRs much.
 
First thing I would try is lowering the boost to 8 psi. People need to be realistic about what to expect from a stock block B230FT. After all, for the year of your B230FT it's performance was about equal to a stock Mustang with a 5.0 L.
 
First thing I would try is lowering the boost to 8 psi. People need to be realistic about what to expect from a stock block B230FT. After all, for the year of your B230FT it's performance was about equal to a stock Mustang with a 5.0 L.

5.0L mustang? What? a 4 cylinder equal to a 8 cylinder? And what would dropping the boost to 8psi accomplish? It is stable at 15psi.
I want more powah not less.
 
put a stock maf back on it and see how it acts. it should not run rich with stock injectors and a 3 inch maf.

on second thought, you probably have a boost leak somewhere
 
I might try stock maf. If it is a boost leak. It must be the hardest to find one because I can't find it no matter how hard i look.
 
put a stock maf back on it and see how it acts. it should not run rich with stock injectors and a 3 inch maf.

on second thought, you probably have a boost leak somewhere

Something along these lines, with the stock injectors and 3" AMM it should be very lean under boost. Something is way way way off. Put the stock chips in chances are 100% the same issue.

We are semi fighting the same issue on a Local car, he had a 19t and it would just run pig ass rich up top. He went to larger injectors and a larger AMM and it is still 9:1 afr's and misfiring from being so rich. He then went to a t3/t4 and still fat fat rich. We threw in an Ostrich box on his car and even when 'tuning' the map from 220 down to 135 he is still HUGE ass rich on the big end. so 100% not a 'tune' issue. This is an LH and car issue. as we have time to keep looking at it I will keep you in mind and let you know of our progress to the resolution.

Either way we tried a quick pressure test (it was late out on a sunday night) and his stock IC made all kinds of bad creaking sounds when it first hit 20psi. We also found a leaking IAC (intake side) hose. Either way his car is doing some really odd things were it will be pig rich, he lets out of the throttle and gets back into it and afr's are 11.5:1 and it pulls great, Or while misfiring it will get to a point and all of a sudden ping/knock and then smooth out and pull nice and strong. I want to pressure test his turbo next chance I get to see if the backing plate is leaking as we had a similar issue on another ebay turbo a few years back. TD04's can leak at the oring also, I had a 16t do it a few months back under load.

Either way This is very much a sensor or mechanical issue that is causing LH to freak out. I am willing to bet if I sent you the map that we made for his car it wouldn't resolve anything for you as this is not a tune issue but a state of the car issue.
 
Something along these lines, with the stock injectors and 3" AMM it should be very lean under boost. Something is way way way off. Put the stock chips in chances are 100% the same issue.

We are semi fighting the same issue on a Local car, he had a 19t and it would just run pig ass rich up top. He went to larger injectors and a larger AMM and it is still 9:1 afr's and misfiring from being so rich. He then went to a t3/t4 and still fat fat rich. We threw in an Ostrich box on his car and even when 'tuning' the map from 220 down to 135 he is still HUGE ass rich on the big end. so 100% not a 'tune' issue. This is an LH and car issue. as we have time to keep looking at it I will keep you in mind and let you know of our progress to the resolution.

Either way we tried a quick pressure test (it was late out on a sunday night) and his stock IC made all kinds of bad creaking sounds when it first hit 20psi. We also found a leaking IAC (intake side) hose. Either way his car is doing some really odd things were it will be pig rich, he lets out of the throttle and gets back into it and afr's are 11.5:1 and it pulls great, Or while misfiring it will get to a point and all of a sudden ping/knock and then smooth out and pull nice and strong. I want to pressure test his turbo next chance I get to see if the backing plate is leaking as we had a similar issue on another ebay turbo a few years back. TD04's can leak at the oring also, I had a 16t do it a few months back under load.

Either way This is very much a sensor or mechanical issue that is causing LH to freak out. I am willing to bet if I sent you the map that we made for his car it wouldn't resolve anything for you as this is not a tune issue but a state of the car issue.

Thanks for answering that scenario for me. Also, i appreciate the info. If you've seen Drift's and Lifts on youtube he has the same setup with your chips and is rich too. If it is a L.H. problem then it must be pretty common. He fixed it by getting someone to do a special tune for him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZKSyYNd-8A&t=337s
 
Mike... I need to get an ezk tune over to you to try, made a big difference on mine. The knock sense issue persists on my car, this tune resolved it.

That said, it sounds like both the op and Mike are fighting the same symptoms I was/am, with knock enrichment. My fix was a combo of tune and a requirement of partial e85 in the tank.

For the op, definitely swap the stock amm back in. A 3" will NOT play nice with stock injectors, pretty sure this has been covered many times. See what it does with that.
 
Thanks for answering that scenario for me. Also, i appreciate the info. If you've seen Drift's and Lifts on youtube he has the same setup with your chips and is rich too. If it is a L.H. problem then it must be pretty common. He fixed it by getting someone to do a special tune for him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZKSyYNd-8A&t=337s

That is the problem with LH, if you do not setup the basics right you can tune around another issue, which would work great until you resolve the issue.

The local car with the issue had to redo the clamp and hose on the IAC (manifold side) as it was leaking still under load. That cleaned up the afr's a lot to the point where you can drive the car under boost. the owner still needs to swap the IC or remove and repressure test but there is still something off with that setup and engine. Custom tuning works great if your setup is outside of the correct scaling of LH and you want to fine tune it but again this is something that really needs to be done on the car vs remotely.
 
That is the problem with LH, if you do not setup the basics right you can tune around another issue, which would work great until you resolve the issue.

The local car with the issue had to redo the clamp and hose on the IAC (manifold side) as it was leaking still under load. That cleaned up the afr's a lot to the point where you can drive the car under boost. the owner still needs to swap the IC or remove and repressure test but there is still something off with that setup and engine. Custom tuning works great if your setup is outside of the correct scaling of LH and you want to fine tune it but again this is something that really needs to be done on the car vs remotely.

There is nothing wrong with my IAC hoses. Its rich under boost but still very much driveable and "quick." I am guessing the AFRs are around 9~.(AEM sensor) I had on the deastchwerk 650cc injectors and it was just undrivable with misfires and hiccups(i bet it was 7-8~AFRS). I was thinking dropping down to 440cc green giants would make it driveable and allow me to raise my boost pressures. I'll continue to check for boost leaks, although it seems like your local friend is in the same predicament as me. I have my stock MAF on another wagon atm and the current 3 inch MAF is working well atm. I think i'll just keep the setup as is until i can pin down the issue.
 
As far as i understood the LH-system the ECU, the injectors and the AMM are (supposed to be) a matched set.

When i still had my 940T with LH2.4 i ran 440cc injectors on a chipped ECU and a stock AMM. And @ stock 3bar fuel pressure.
The engine never had an issue with AFR's, after some initial learning it had perfect lambda=1 @ idle, nice closed loop operation @ cruise speeds and normal rich operation @ WOT (don't know actual AFR numbers though)
I once tried a big 960 AMM but i never got that thing to work properly on my LH2.4 + 440cc injectors. Not even after messing around with different fuel pressure settings
 
There is nothing wrong with my IAC hoses. Its rich under boost but still very much driveable and "quick." I am guessing the AFRs are around 9~.(AEM sensor) I had on the deastchwerk 650cc injectors and it was just undrivable with misfires and hiccups(i bet it was 7-8~AFRS). I was thinking dropping down to 440cc green giants would make it driveable and allow me to raise my boost pressures. I'll continue to check for boost leaks, although it seems like your local friend is in the same predicament as me. I have my stock MAF on another wagon atm and the current 3 inch MAF is working well atm. I think i'll just keep the setup as is until i can pin down the issue.

So in your first post you say you are running stock sized injectors, and now you said you are running 650? Which is it?

with the 3" amm and 650 injectors while those should be sized right for a correct idle and cruise with your setup you are not moving enough air through that engine to burn that much fuel. Way to much injector. With the 440cc I would try the stock amm and see how it does, If the idle and cruise afr's are correct then under load it should be closer to correct pending other issues are resolved.

As I have said many times one of the worst things about LH these days are the age and shape of componets. I have used 3 different AMM's to get very different loaded AFR's while each provided perfect idle and cruise, because of this it is becoming harder to get things correct.

Going back to the first post, if you are running stock injectors with the 3" amm and it is still rich then you have something really wrong with your setup, this is not an LH map issue. It sounds a lot like you might possibly have some of the knock enrichment issues like Gary did or something else is really off.

Another thing that I am starting to think about is what kind of fuel are you running? Does your fuel near you have ethanol in it (E10 fuel) or is it that pure gas stuff?

Are you still running the stock IC? have you removed and pressure tested it (hard to see leaks on endtanks in the car) as they like to do odd things over 20psi.
 
Just to touch on something that hasn't been brought up here yet.

Swapping the AMM affects fueling, but it also affects timing due to load changes. I know Mike is aware of this, but the OP and others reading may not know this.

Point is, when you step up to a larger AMM, you add in ignition timing usually, as the EZK will be seeing a different load signal, lower airflow on the curve than the comparable stock AMM, so it will step up the timing a little. That added timing may be playing into the issue on mine as well, since stepping up fuel to race fuel or a partial E85 mix resolves the issue completely. I'm not at a point of swapping back to stock to test, plus my setup will outflow the stock AMM without much trouble.

For the OP, given your setup and goals, I would swap back to the stock AMM and something around a 380-400cc injector, see how it does.
 
Hey sorry I didn't clarify. I used 650cc deatschwerk injectors about half a year ago. I ran super rich with those and went down to stock flowing injectors(330cc~) and sold the 650cc injectors. I will try stock maf or maybe to try a different 3 inch maf with green giants?

Using brand new npr intercooler.

I want more torque and power. Don't want to go any lower than current setup.
 
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