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T5 or Getrag Alternatives? (Read: you can punch me in the face for .25c)

EivlEvo said:
. Aside from the many upsides to the Evo, one of them is proper gearing for a turbocharged car of that nature.
Click to expand...

Let's compare nice Evobitchi 4-5-6 ratios to the available boxes and see if we have something similar.
Evo and a well done Volvo turbo can make similar Haitch Peas and Phhht-lebz so that's a wash
Evo
GSR Model (1 gear not homologated for motorsports) st
Gear... Teeth..... Ratio
1 .....41/14 ......2.928
2 ......39/20..... 1.95
3 .....38/27...... 1.407
4 ......33/32...... 1.031
5 .......31/43..... 0.72

Evo 4-5-6

Gear Teeth Ratio
1..... 39/14....... 2.785
2..... 39/20........ 1.95
3..... 38/27....... 1.407
4...... 33/32...... 1.031
5...... 32/42....... 0.761

or
Gear Teeth Ratio
1........ 39/14........ 2.785
2........ 39/20.........1.95
3 ........39/27....... 1.444
4.......... 34/31......1.096
5.......... 33/40......0.825
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now some Borg Warner commonly used boxes..

And look at the common Ford Mustang T5
1352-253 Ford 1994-95 Mustang 5.0 V8 WC Y
1........................3.35
2........................1.99
3........................1.33
4.......................1.00
5.......................0.68

Meh..OK but kinda shorter 1st (fine for axle ratios like 3.36 or 3.73)

Or the Ford Z spec:
1......................2.95
2......................1.94
3......................1.34
4......................1.00
5......................0.63

Hmmmmm looks similar to EVObitchi except that nuts OD

GM T5 for V8s
1......................2.95
2......................1.94
3......................1.34
4......................1.00
5......................0.73

Looks very similar to that GSR model doesn't it?

And then there's the T5 used in some obscure Euro Ford turbo 2,0 16v things that I can't say cause its a trigger word for a bunch of little hipster boys here..Called 1352-225

1......................2.95
2......................1.94
3......................1.34
4......................1.00
5......................0.80<------------Nice 5th for actual use as a gear (instead of just low rev cruise)

So combine one of those with a back axle ratio suitable for what your doing--but if you choose a axle ratio similar to the Evos---somewhere between 4.3 and 4.56---and because similar torque, very similar gearing in box and final and probably a weight advantage of several hundred pounds---and the Volvo ought to GO similarly..

Particularly 1st thru 4th...
And so you CAN gear it shorter in the axle than most here dare conceive of--and with that crazy overdrive, cruise at noticeably less revs at 70mph or so cruising speed.. A fun dual-purpose car.

And...long term ownership: unlike the Getrags, parts are very reasonable..and very available, and rebuilding the box is well within the ability of home garage guy..vs the Getrag which is a monster pain to just open up and close up and insanely priced parts.
 
John V said:
Let's compare nice Evobitchi 4-5-6 ratios to the available boxes and see if we have something similar.
Evo and a well done Volvo turbo can make similar Haitch Peas and Phhht-lebz so that's a wash
Evo
GSR Model (1 gear not homologated for motorsports) st
Gear... Teeth..... Ratio
1 .....41/14 ......2.928
2 ......39/20..... 1.95
3 .....38/27...... 1.407
4 ......33/32...... 1.031
5 .......31/43..... 0.72

Evo 4-5-6

Gear Teeth Ratio
1..... 39/14....... 2.785
2..... 39/20........ 1.95
3..... 38/27....... 1.407
4...... 33/32...... 1.031
5...... 32/42....... 0.761

or
Gear Teeth Ratio
1........ 39/14........ 2.785
2........ 39/20.........1.95
3 ........39/27....... 1.444
4.......... 34/31......1.096
5.......... 33/40......0.825
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now some Borg Warner commonly used boxes..

And look at the common Ford Mustang T5
1352-253 Ford 1994-95 Mustang 5.0 V8 WC Y
1........................3.35
2........................1.99
3........................1.33
4.......................1.00
5.......................0.68

Meh..OK but kinda shorter 1st (fine for axle ratios like 3.36 or 3.73)

Or the Ford Z spec:
1......................2.95
2......................1.94
3......................1.34
4......................1.00
5......................0.63

Hmmmmm looks similar to EVObitchi except that nuts OD

GM T5 for V8s
1......................2.95
2......................1.94
3......................1.34
4......................1.00
5......................0.73

Looks very similar to that GSR model doesn't it?

And then there's the T5 used in some obscure Euro Ford turbo 2,0 16v things that I can't say cause its a trigger word for a bunch of little hipster boys here..Called 1352-225

1......................2.95
2......................1.94
3......................1.34
4......................1.00
5......................0.80<------------Nice 5th for actual use as a gear (instead of just low rev cruise)

So combine one of those with a back axle ratio suitable for what your doing--but if you choose a axle ratio similar to the Evos---somewhere between 4.3 and 4.56---and because similar torque, very similar gearing in box and final and probably a weight advantage of several hundred pounds---and the Volvo ought to GO similarly..

Particularly 1st thru 4th...
And so you CAN gear it shorter in the axle than most here dare conceive of--and with that crazy overdrive, cruise at noticeably less revs at 70mph or so cruising speed.. A fun dual-purpose car.

And...long term ownership: unlike the Getrags, parts are very reasonable..and very available, and rebuilding the box is well within the ability of home garage guy..vs the Getrag which is a monster pain to just open up and close up and insanely priced parts.
Click to expand...

John. Thanks for posting this... I had seen a similar post you made somewhere but haven't been able to find it since. Though I remembered you suggesting the GM WC box over the Ford setup (barring the cosseh).

That stated, as much of the info is regarding swapping the Ford boxes in, what's involved in swapping in the GM WC's? I thought I recalled the input shaft being less than ideal? Additionally, once the bell housing is removed, is it the same adapter setup, or do I need to weld (or get a custom) bell housing?
 
PDXBryan said:
Very cool comparo JV.
Click to expand...


Thanks.. I do the same for rally guys and it is kinda interesting to see the close similarities in those numbers--HP, torque @ rpm and weight and see what's similar, what's dis-similar...
So much better than balling our fists and stamping our feet and shouting " I like my gearbox!!!"

Interesting to compare for non-turbo cars for example the ratios used in late 60s Merikun Muscle cars in their boxes and final drive...Their engine power and torque is what I think we're mostly aiming for...Interesting what route they took after the engine...
 
EivlEvo said:
John. Thanks for posting this... I had seen a similar post you made somewhere but haven't been able to find it since. Though I remembered you suggesting the GM WC box over the Ford setup (barring the cosseh).

That stated, as much of the info is regarding swapping the Ford boxes in, what's involved in swapping in the GM WC's? I thought I recalled the input shaft being less than ideal? Additionally, once the bell housing is removed, is it the same adapter setup, or do I need to weld (or get a custom) bell housing?
Click to expand...


Gotta get mah girlies off to school, be back in a bit...all the answers are: depends.
 
I have a modified bell-housing toyota W58 behind our chump car effort. Its a great transmission. Very plentiful in the junkyard for cheap and easy to rebuild if that's necessary.. We have had 2 clutch failures but I am going to chuck them up to poor quality clutch disk from SPEC. Ordering a disk from Josh @ Yoshifab in hopes to alleviate that issue.

-Sam
 
RoadRacer4Life said:
I have a modified bell-housing toyota W58 behind our chump car effort. Its a great transmission. Very plentiful in the junkyard for cheap and easy to rebuild if that's necessary.. We have had 2 clutch failures but I am going to chuck them up to poor quality clutch disk from SPEC. Ordering a disk from Josh @ Yoshifab in hopes to alleviate that issue.

-Sam
Click to expand...

Yeah... I can't wrap my head around the modified bell housing setup... How are you all getting everything lined up? I feel like with the tolerances that are required, despite being skilled with TIG, it's above my skillset.
 
EivlEvo said:
Yeah... I can't wrap my head around the modified bell housing setup... How are you all getting everything lined up? I feel like with the tolerances that are required, despite being skilled with TIG, it's above my skillset.
Click to expand...

You will most likely need a machinist to help you it with it at least to machine some "centering" diameter or just finding the actual center of the input shaft.

Nowadays you can finds a lot of meaurement floating around on the internet for a lot of trans if you have the patience to go through a lot of BS :p

I have a 3k$ 4l80 in my car behind the V8 and it's a very solid and predictable transmission. Auto's aren't cheap either.
 
W58 ratios:
3.29
1.89
1.28
1.00
.78

It's got that "mustang" 3.3 1st gear but a closer ratio 2-4 than the GM/T5Z box. The OD and 1st gear make it more of a 3.73 trans.
 
Last edited:
tjanson said:
W58 ratios:
3.29
1.89
1.28
1.00
.78

It's got that "mustang" 3.3 1st gear but a closer ratio 2-4 than the GM/T5Z box. The OD and 1st gear make it more of a 3.73 trans.
Click to expand...

True 2-3-4 are "closer" but by insignificant amouts...tiny differences...

And the 3.29 is just insignificantly different from the "popular" T5 3.35...

But I want the interplay between box and axle in all gears 1-4.. and i want the car to accelerate quickly in 3rd and 4th---that's where the shorter axle ratio comes into play..

If we go to a 4.3 or 4.37 axle ratio, that first in the Toiletta box is useless.. it'll become a 1 and 1/2 car length first. WAP! done shift...

And sure they're around but the means to bolt them in isn't..
 
lummert said:
Anyone thought of a 5 speed auto trans swap for a redblock? Myself I'm past the years of tolerating a manual trans and a clutch pedal.
Click to expand...

Automatics are significantly easier to adapt. Talk to Roger Dee about making a 5L40 or 6L50 adapter. The swap won't be cheap.
 
culberro said:
The T5 really needs the .79/.8 5th gear to make them more fun. 1-4 are great (especially with a 4.88 ring and pinion), but 5th (especially the 0.63) is only good for cruising down the highway.
Good news is that a 0.79 5th gear set can be had from Astro for a cool $300.
https://www.astroperformance.com/product/79-a-5-road-race-5th-gear-kit/
Click to expand...

I've got a t5z with a 2.95 1st and a .8 5th with a 3.91 rear and it's just about perfect to me. The .8 came from Modern Driveline, not sure if they still offer it.

I've been in cars with the 3.35 1st and .63 5th and I think people who think they are "fine" are a little delusional...
 
I prefer the clunkiness of the t5 to the vagueness of the getrag. Ever try shifting a getrag really fast? Doesn't like it. T5 just clunks on in.

Stock t5 1st and 5th are useless unless you live on the side of a cliff that leads to the autobahn. Easily remedied with more money though.
 
Tuff240 said:
I prefer the clunkiness of the t5 to the vagueness of the getrag. Ever try shifting a getrag really fast? Doesn't like it. T5 just clunks on in.
Click to expand...

I fully agree with this. With a shifter with positive stops, you can just slam shifts in the t5. It doesn't care at all, and I have yet to miss a shift when doing so.
 
EivlEvo said:
Yeah... I can't wrap my head around the modified bell housing setup... How are you all getting everything lined up? I feel like with the tolerances that are required, despite being skilled with TIG, it's above my skillset.
Click to expand...

Step one install custom pilot bearing into crankshaft and measure the expected total bellhousing height
164788034.BQLRQHlB.jpg


Step two cut the two bellhousings in half but remember not to cut to much..
163814586.fHJVgLBo.jpg


Step 3 get your shifter angle correct for welding.
163814585.l6itCr53.jpg


Step 3 was tricky to make sure the shifter was pointing straight up considering our volvo engines sit in the car at an odd angle
164788048.YB4c02m5.jpg


Measure for modified driveshaft
164788047.qb92kjVN.jpg


Mod the clutch fork to work with the volvo slave cyl
164788052.jpg


-Sam
 
I guess I'm the ratio guy now..

CD009:
1st: 3.794
2nd: 2.324
3rd: 1.624
4th: 1.271
5th: 1.000
6th: .794

Would be nice with a 3.31. It's got an integrated bellhousing, though.

edit: Actually, it might be lame with a 3.31. That 3.79 1st is awkward.
 
Last edited:
RoadRacer4Life said:
Step one install custom pilot bearing into crankshaft and measure the expected total bellhousing height
164788034.BQLRQHlB.jpg


Step two cut the two bellhousings in half but remember not to cut to much..
163814586.fHJVgLBo.jpg


Step 3 get your shifter angle correct for welding.
163814585.l6itCr53.jpg


Step 3 was tricky to make sure the shifter was pointing straight up considering our volvo engines sit in the car at an odd angle
164788048.YB4c02m5.jpg


Measure for modified driveshaft
164788047.qb92kjVN.jpg


Mod the clutch fork to work with the volvo slave cyl
164788052.jpg


-Sam
Click to expand...

Interestingly enough... this is how it played out in my head, but I kept telling myself that there's no way it's done like that. :omg:
 
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