Does anyone think these IC's actually work well? A holiday Bondo rant.

Ok so I am "off" posting for the most part but I need one rant to unload some holiday stress and hopefully provide the board with some stuff to chew on over the holidays.

Last night a couple tbricks guys were over and I got started on a rant I decided to finish here.

If you type "intercooler" into ebay,you are quickly arrive at a picture of one of these:



I find it interesting that these have gained preference over truck intercoolers.

What I find more interesting is that no one has commented on the end tanks.

You just can't make them like that. Well, you can, but you might as well cut the bottom half of the intercooler right off while you're at it, 'cause it ain't doing much.

Basially my holiday thought is this:

End tank design is a commonly overlooked part of an intercooler - the focus is always almost entirely on core size.

Another major consideration IMO should be how well are you actually using that core area?

This is why I like the NPR, International, and Powerstroke intercoolers etc a lot more.

The end tanks are cast with some thought to fluid dynamics in mind. The chinese IC's are built with the simplest, cheapest end tank design possible (see above).

Here is a good article on the subject with some flow testing:

http://www.dvdtfab.com/intercoolertestlab.pdf

Some other pics:

HKS actually make weld-on end tanks:




This is a good layout too IMO:




There is another style I like that I don't have time to find pictures of right now- the International intercoolers so it and I saw a Lemans racer ic that has the same design- the inlet/outlet go "Oval" and funnel air in/out of the core. I will maybe take some pics of mny International IC tonight if I have time- they are very wqell thought out.


The chinese IC's have good test results, but IMO they could be helped a LOT but having their end tanks cut off and re-done.

If I ever get one, It's what I'll do.

Plus our cars just work better with rearward facing inlet/outlet, rather than having to add unnecessary addition 90 degree silocone couplers on the ends with just add complexity, make the instasll less clean. ad some presssure drop, and not help air distribution through the core.

Anyways I hope this provides some brain food for some folks.

All the folks who are convinced I am either a benchracer/useless forum member need not reply. I really don't care.

So that's my thoughts. Happy Holidays everyone!

yeah the way its designed endtank wise i kinda dumb, i have that IC in my car. but do i think the IC size is overkill anyways? yes. the coldside pipe is pretty damn cold even after some long hard runs.i agree its designed kinda dumb but the pricepoint is good and its gona cool the air pretty well for what most of us are aiming for.

good post Bondo......for us n/a suckers, one less thing to worry about

To be honest Kenny, I think a lot of us (myself included) by them because they are really really cheap and VERY available as you already know. A 'truck" intercooler is harder to find and more expensive. Thats why I went with the ebay one.

i think my npr works.. dunno, i push on the pedal, car goes fast....

Jordan, I guess its a tradeoff. I waited around for an NPR because it was basically bolt it and I didn't want to mess around with a bunch of couplers and new pipes etc. Price would have about the same as an Ebay unit. Like Bondo is saying, I like that the NPR is a TRUCK intercooler designed to put up with the rigors that go along with commercial truck use. If it can handle being in a delivery truck it will be indestructible in my Volvo, and it looks pretty damn indestructible too.

Agreed Ken.
Although that paper the fellow wrote is conceptually correct, I don't like his data collection methods.

I went over this a while back. Grassroots Motorsports tested about a dozen common intercoolers. The one you posted (the eBay Special/XS Sports/CX Racing/etc) was the best AND the cheapest in terms of flow and efficiency.

It's cheaper than the NPR, and works better. The NPR is said to be easier to install, though.

Would you notice a difference between a car running an eBay Special vs an NPR? Probably not.

Would you notice a difference with custom end tanks compared to stock end tanks? Probably not. Maybe an extra 0.1 to 0.4mph worth of flow in a quarter mile would be my guess, at the most. Chances are, there are other more significant bottlenecks that could be addressed first.

For how well the eBay intercoolers work, and for how cheap they are, it doesn't seem worth while to fabricate end tanks for them only because then you burn up the smokin' value they already are.

I guess if you're really looking to irk out that 115+mph trap speed, then sure. But chances are, there's better places to spend money on 99% of our cars, other than custom fabbing end tanks on a cheap intercooler that already works better than most of the other ones out there.

I use those ics a lot here at the shop. I have been cutting the tanks off and welding new ones on lately but thats only because it makes the piping a lot cleaner and customers are willing to pay for a little extra bling. Im sure the dvdt fab ones flow better but I promise you will not notice the difference on a ~300whp car.

If you disagree with the end tank design, I would never stop you from trying to make it better (see my sig, I quoted you after all)

But that article is bogus. It was made by a mediocre mid-year mechanical engineering student. From here on let?s just call it a lab report.

He made no attempt to match the operating point of the IC in-vehicle. As far as I tell he did testing in the low-velocity quasi-laminar region of flow. In the car, the intake flow is undoubtedly turbulent and is definitely never a fully developed flow that you can easily visualize. Even all of those loss factors in the lab report are for fully-developed laminar flow. In the car, all bets are off.

He should have done some back of the envelope calculations for the air mass flow rate required for say 300 HP and they back calculated the mass flow rate required from the blower to get some non-dimensional operating point that relates to the in-vehicle operation. I.e. Reynolds number or similar.

One thing I know for certain is that you can't just visualize turbulent flow. You have to measure it.

Someone with a laser thermometer could measure the temperature spread across the e-bay IC right after a long hard run. This would be a good first step to figuring out what is actually going on inside.

So IDK if the e-bay IC is bad or good in the continuum of all intercooler designs possible, but I do know that the lab report is not a good reference and that the bang/$ ratio of the e-bay IC is pretty good...

sdturbo said:

I use those ics a lot here at the shop. I have been cutting the tanks off and welding new ones on lately but thats only because it makes the piping a lot cleaner and customers are willing to pay for a little extra bling. Im sure the dvdt fab ones flow better but I promise you will not notice the difference on a ~300whp car.

Click to expand...

That's the main reason to do the end tanks I would think. I left them stock, and the plumbing was a huge pain.

Yeah I agree that things are better in the truck IC's regarding the end tanks. I don't think that in a setup like i have (and many other sub 200-300 hp brickers) it isn't going to matter much. Sure, i like it when things are effective and used efficiently, but at the price of such a ebay IC, you can't beat it. yadda yadda
I am merely posting to show off my Iveco IC.

pic:


I removed 2" from the bottom, not much end tank width was left there and there were some damaged pieces. Now it fits perfectly under the sheet metal holding the hood latch, just before where the N/A radiator position is.

It is also important to route the air correctly, with a custom IC install i often see huge air gaps between IC and radiator, oil cooler etc. Not good for IC performance. You wont notice it if you are only going flat out for 15 seconds though, the IC will cool charge air to a certain degree with its thermal capacity, slowly heating up, slowly cooling down again.

I've always preferred the NPR not only because it fits better but because of the very rugged design. It is a whole lot easier to fit in a 240. The ebay intercooler I've always thought is better for the 700/900 cars where you have a bit more room.

this is nothing new. we replaced the one on andy's civic and picked up 60 whp on the dyno, at lower boost. the ebay intercoolers are a good replacement for the factory volvo ****, but that's about as far as I would go with that.

the forum really gives itself away though when I read comments like "unless you're looking for that 115mph trap" or "over 300hp".

shoot short guys, shoot short.

linuxman51 said:

this is nothing new. we replaced the one on andy's civic and picked up 60 whp on the dyno, at lower boost. the ebay intercoolers are a good replacement for the factory volvo ****, but that's about as far as I would go with that.

the forum really gives itself away though when I read comments like "unless you're looking for that 115mph trap" or "over 300hp".

shoot short guys, shoot short.

Click to expand...

Oh, we'll shoot higher!

...what's your address to send the invoices to, since you're buying apparently?!

It has nothing to do with the forum...it has to do with the fact that 115+mph trap speeds and 300+whp costs several thousand dollars to build reliably, and many of us on the board drive cars that initially cost in the hundreds of dollars, not thousands.

I'm pinching pennies trying to get JUNKYARD parts for my build.

It's a matter of funds, not "this board."

L8 APEKS said:

Oh, we'll shoot higher!

...what's your address to send the invoices to, since you're buying apparently?!

It has nothing to do with the forum...it has to do with the fact that 115+mph trap speeds and 300+whp costs several thousand dollars to build reliably, and many of us on the board drive cars that initially cost in the hundreds of dollars, not thousands.

I'm pinching pennies trying to get JUNKYARD parts for my build.

It's a matter of funds, not "this board."

Click to expand...

You really don't know Kenny well then. Because just from reading what he does on the board here. He has done all his accomplishments affordably. Speed isn't cheap and he has put the money and time in needed but it's not as much as you might think.

kenny aka the ten ****ing second volvo driver/builder/owner
i would listen to him.

Subscribed, as I've been looking for one.

I had always considered the NPR the holy grail of IC's, till I saw the preference has shifted to ebay cheapies. Whats the deal with that! They are only a few bucks more.

740Weapon said:

If you disagree with the end tank design, I would never stop you from trying to make it better (see my sig, I quoted you after all)

But that article is bogus. It was made by a mediocre mid-year mechanical engineering student. From here on let’s just call it a lab report.

He made no attempt to match the operating point of the IC in-vehicle. As far as I tell he did testing in the low-velocity quasi-laminar region of flow. In the car, the intake flow is undoubtedly turbulent and is definitely never a fully developed flow that you can easily visualize. Even all of those loss factors in the lab report are for fully-developed laminar flow. In the car, all bets are off.

He should have done some back of the envelope calculations for the air mass flow rate required for say 300 HP and they back calculated the mass flow rate required from the blower to get some non-dimensional operating point that relates to the in-vehicle operation. I.e. Reynolds number or similar.

One thing I know for certain is that you can't just visualize turbulent flow. You have to measure it.

Someone with a laser thermometer could measure the temperature spread across the e-bay IC right after a long hard run. This would be a good first step to figuring out what is actually going on inside.

So IDK if the e-bay IC is bad or good in the continuum of all intercooler designs possible, but I do know that the lab report is not a good reference and that the bang/$ ratio of the e-bay IC is pretty good...

Click to expand...

I was thinking much of what you just stated. Definitely not a great report in my opinion. Not saying I disagree with Kenny, just that the evidence here doesn't convince me.

Like it or not, the majority of TBers are only looking to make 200~300whp. A 15g car is not going to see 60whp swapping from a ebay to a spearco or NPR. Its hard to justify the cost difference for such little gain at that level IMHO.