MS3x dsm cas

Mudbutt · 01-03-2021, 01:40 PM

I’m trying to set up a turbo 16v b230 with ms3.0/3x. D585 coils. It will spark and a few backfires. I think I just need to get ignition timing set correctly but there is a lot of self doubt involved. I’m only seeing around 80rpm when cranking but it would sync. I adjusted r52 & r56 all the way counter-clockwise and couldn’t get rpm sync at all. I turned them both clockwise and would sync again. I took a pic of the composite log if anyone could verify that it looks ok.

bobxyz · 01-03-2021, 05:32 PM

Looks OK. Unfortunately, the detailed instructions and pictures in the first few posts in The official DSM CAS information and install guide are all gone now. You might be able to find the original instructions using the Internet Wayback Machine.

I did post some abbreviated instructions and pictures towards the end of the thread - when I posted, the original pictures were gone but the original instructions were still intact. If you bought your DSM CAS through Yoshifab, you could ask them if they have an archived set of installation instructions.

Mudbutt · 01-03-2021, 06:47 PM

Hi Bob, Thanks for looking at the log. Your post have been incredibly helpful trying to get this set up. and in general. I did print out the original instructions from the Wayback machine when you posted a link months ago. I did buy this from Yoshifab years ago and never installed. I will ask about a copy of instructions with pics and hopefully get that in the mix.
I think MS is setup correctly from seeing 24/1 in the log and getting fuel spark but the ignition timing is off. I have very little experience with this and don’t know if I’m missing something obvious and trying to avoid chasing my tail or frying something.

linuxman51 · 01-04-2021, 08:59 AM

change your tdc angle to get the timing to line up

Mudbutt · 01-04-2021, 06:55 PM

I have the timing set with a light. I still can get it to run. Should I have a 1k ohm resistor in r57? I attached a pic of the board to show how it is set up. Crank is to ms pin 24 and cam to 3x. Thanks!

bobxyz · 01-04-2021, 08:39 PM

I looked at the manual, and it says to turn the pots fully counter clockwise. I'm not sure why that didn't work OK for you.

Are you running wasted spark? Have you tried the Testmodes/OutputTest-Spk menu to see if you can generate spark on all plugs, and that your coil isn't getting too hot (due to wrong spark polarity)?

R57, and the empty power FET location in the upper right corner, are for the single-coil high-power spark circuits. You don't use them with wasted spark and an external power stage.

It looks like some of the soldering on the board is a little sparse. I'd get a bright light and a magnifying glass, and carefully look at each solder pad on the bottom of the board. If any of them don't have a nice full solder fillet, I'd touch them up.

If you have access to a jimstim, you could try that on the desktop to verify the tuner studio setup and the MS box. It's also a good way to learn about the tuner studio setup, maps, and logging capabilities.

linuxman51 · 01-04-2021, 08:51 PM

oh no. bypass the "universal conditioner" and get a max chip based conditioner that can take normal 5v pullup inputs. I had no end of problems with the built-in circuits using logic level inputs.

Mudbutt · 01-04-2021, 09:57 PM

Thanks, I just tried testing the coils and do have a strong spark on all. One thing to note is that I had a hard time getting my timing light to trigger when I was turning the cas with the starter motor. I tried the timing light in test mode and it triggered the light much easier.

I also tried turning r52 and r56 all the way counter clock wise again and couldn’t get a signal from the cas. Turning r56 six turns clock wise brought it back. I have it hooked up to a Jimstim and it seemed ok. I will fill any voids with solder and play with it some more.

Is the Zeal daughterboard that diy sells a max chip based conditioner that would be good? Sorry to be so daft...I googled max chip based conditioner and it was all scalp itch products.

bobxyz · 01-04-2021, 11:19 PM

The Zeal board uses an older VR conditioner chip, a National Semi LM1815. The MicroSquirt, and higher-end MS boxes, use a newer Maxim Semi MAX9926 chip. I don't know how they compare.

jbperf.com has a MAX9926 board, but I'm not sure if the site is still active.

Mudbutt · 01-04-2021, 11:49 PM

I appreciate that. Site is opened and order placed for dual VR V2.1.

Mudbutt · 01-25-2021, 06:45 PM

I was going to solder the Dual VR 2.1 in the proto area. It’s MS v3 3x. Does this drawing look like the way to go for DSM CAS? Thanks.

Mudbutt · 01-30-2021, 10:34 AM

^ if anyone can help? I've tried the JBperf forum but it's not very active.

bobxyz · 01-30-2021, 02:58 PM

I haven't used one of these, but from here: http://jbperf.com/dual_VR/v2_1.html
"The board can also be used with Hall or opto sensors. In that case, the sensor is connected to VR+ only and VR- is left floating (not connected to anything). If the sensor does not generate a voltage (open drain output), a pull up resistor will be needed."

The CAS uses open drain opto sensors, so you want:
- Crank In, with a 1K pullup to +5, to VR1+ / VR1- unconnected
- Cam In, with a 1K pullup to +5, to VR2+ / VR2- unconnected
- Out1 to TSEL
- Out2 to JS10

[Note: for confusion, and maybe backwards compatibility, MicroSquirt swaps the VR+ and VR- wires internally -- VR+ goes to chip IN-, VR- to chip IN+. This means that MicroSquirt CAS setups use the opposite connection as the JBperf board.]

bobxyz · 02-01-2021, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudbutt

Thanks, I just tried testing the coils and do have a strong spark on all. One thing to note is that I had a hard time getting my timing light to trigger when I was turning the cas with the starter motor. I tried the timing light in test mode and it triggered the light much easier.

For cranking versus test modes, there's a dwell setting for each - without out looking it up, 3ms should be a good enough starting point for the D585 Yukon heatsinked coils. Also, make sure you get the Spark Output setting correct - IIRC, MS2V30 uses Going Low with logic coils but MS3X uses Going High. If set incorrectly, the coils will be protected by their auto-dwell circuits, but the spark will fire at the wrong time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudbutt

I also tried turning r52 and r56 all the way counter clock wise again and couldn’t get a signal from the cas. Turning r56 six turns clock wise brought it back.

Oops, sorry, I missed the six turns CW in the instructions. That won't matter with the JBperf board installed.

If you're still having problems, post a log of cranking/trying to start, and the .msq.

Mudbutt · 02-02-2021, 07:56 AM

Thank you! I appreciate your help. I have installed the vr2.1 board and will report back when I get it on the car. .

It’s currently running well using the stock lh2.4 sensor and d585 coils on another MS3x.

linuxman51 · 02-02-2021, 10:03 AM

looks right, although I don't think I have anything hooked up to the tach select line (iirc with the jbperf and similar boards you either ground the +, or leave it floating. off hand I can't remember which)

01-04-2021, 08:59 AM	#4
linuxman51 BRANDSCHUTZVORSCHRIFTEN! Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: mont, AL	change your tdc angle to get the timing to line up __________________ "They bum rushed them in their own crib, they drank all their beer, they partied with their ladies and they left with the trophy" Now with in-house Dyno tuning! Megasquirt Tuning! Plug and play LH 2.4 Megasquirt, now with stealth mode!

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01-03-2021, 05:32 PM	#2
bobxyz Board Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Boulder CO	Looks OK. Unfortunately, the detailed instructions and pictures in the first few posts in The official DSM CAS information and install guide are all gone now. You might be able to find the original instructions using the Internet Wayback Machine. I did post some abbreviated instructions and pictures towards the end of the thread - when I posted, the original pictures were gone but the original instructions were still intact. If you bought your DSM CAS through Yoshifab, you could ask them if they have an archived set of installation instructions.

01-03-2021, 06:47 PM	#3
Mudbutt Board Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Charlottesville, Va	Hi Bob, Thanks for looking at the log. Your post have been incredibly helpful trying to get this set up. and in general. I did print out the original instructions from the Wayback machine when you posted a link months ago. I did buy this from Yoshifab years ago and never installed. I will ask about a copy of instructions with pics and hopefully get that in the mix. I think MS is setup correctly from seeing 24/1 in the log and getting fuel spark but the ignition timing is off. I have very little experience with this and don’t know if I’m missing something obvious and trying to avoid chasing my tail or frying something.

01-04-2021, 08:39 PM	#6
bobxyz Board Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Boulder CO	I looked at the manual, and it says to turn the pots fully counter clockwise. I'm not sure why that didn't work OK for you. Are you running wasted spark? Have you tried the Testmodes/OutputTest-Spk menu to see if you can generate spark on all plugs, and that your coil isn't getting too hot (due to wrong spark polarity)? R57, and the empty power FET location in the upper right corner, are for the single-coil high-power spark circuits. You don't use them with wasted spark and an external power stage. It looks like some of the soldering on the board is a little sparse. I'd get a bright light and a magnifying glass, and carefully look at each solder pad on the bottom of the board. If any of them don't have a nice full solder fillet, I'd touch them up. If you have access to a jimstim, you could try that on the desktop to verify the tuner studio setup and the MS box. It's also a good way to learn about the tuner studio setup, maps, and logging capabilities.

01-04-2021, 08:51 PM	#7
linuxman51 BRANDSCHUTZVORSCHRIFTEN! Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: mont, AL	oh no. bypass the "universal conditioner" and get a max chip based conditioner that can take normal 5v pullup inputs. I had no end of problems with the built-in circuits using logic level inputs.

01-04-2021, 09:57 PM	#8
Mudbutt Board Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Charlottesville, Va	Thanks, I just tried testing the coils and do have a strong spark on all. One thing to note is that I had a hard time getting my timing light to trigger when I was turning the cas with the starter motor. I tried the timing light in test mode and it triggered the light much easier. I also tried turning r52 and r56 all the way counter clock wise again and couldn’t get a signal from the cas. Turning r56 six turns clock wise brought it back. I have it hooked up to a Jimstim and it seemed ok. I will fill any voids with solder and play with it some more. Is the Zeal daughterboard that diy sells a max chip based conditioner that would be good? Sorry to be so daft...I googled max chip based conditioner and it was all scalp itch products.

01-04-2021, 11:19 PM	#9
bobxyz Board Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Boulder CO	The Zeal board uses an older VR conditioner chip, a National Semi LM1815. The MicroSquirt, and higher-end MS boxes, use a newer Maxim Semi MAX9926 chip. I don't know how they compare. jbperf.com has a MAX9926 board, but I'm not sure if the site is still active.

01-04-2021, 11:49 PM	#10
Mudbutt Board Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Charlottesville, Va	I appreciate that. Site is opened and order placed for dual VR V2.1.

01-30-2021, 10:34 AM	#12
Mudbutt Board Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Charlottesville, Va	^ if anyone can help? I've tried the JBperf forum but it's not very active.

01-30-2021, 02:58 PM	#13
bobxyz Board Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Boulder CO	I haven't used one of these, but from here: http://jbperf.com/dual_VR/v2_1.html "The board can also be used with Hall or opto sensors. In that case, the sensor is connected to VR+ only and VR- is left floating (not connected to anything). If the sensor does not generate a voltage (open drain output), a pull up resistor will be needed." The CAS uses open drain opto sensors, so you want: - Crank In, with a 1K pullup to +5, to VR1+ / VR1- unconnected - Cam In, with a 1K pullup to +5, to VR2+ / VR2- unconnected - Out1 to TSEL - Out2 to JS10 [Note: for confusion, and maybe backwards compatibility, MicroSquirt swaps the VR+ and VR- wires internally -- VR+ goes to chip IN-, VR- to chip IN+. This means that MicroSquirt CAS setups use the opposite connection as the JBperf board.]

02-02-2021, 10:03 AM	#16
linuxman51 BRANDSCHUTZVORSCHRIFTEN! Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: mont, AL	looks right, although I don't think I have anything hooked up to the tach select line (iirc with the jbperf and similar boards you either ground the +, or leave it floating. off hand I can't remember which)