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Old 03-25-2018, 01:37 PM   #526
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Wrap it in a Mexican blanket for the stealth approach
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Old 03-25-2018, 01:55 PM   #527
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Soft mounted. I noticed a huge difference in buzz.
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Old 03-25-2018, 03:56 PM   #528
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Soft mount doesn't have to be non-captive.

Question: does that "surge tank" perform correctly on its side?

Some people call surge tanks "swirl pots" which is fitting as it gives the fuel somewhere to settle before being consumed. I feel like that unit would struggle even the right way up?
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Old 03-25-2018, 06:51 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by FreeEMSFred View Post
Soft mount doesn't have to be non-captive.

Question: does that "surge tank" perform correctly on its side?

Some people call surge tanks "swirl pots" which is fitting as it gives the fuel somewhere to settle before being consumed. I feel like that unit would struggle even the right way up?
Yes, it's designed to be used horizontally, although I think a front-to-back orientation would be better. Have a look at this cross section rendering, and look where the pickup is. Very close to the bottom of the cylinder. It's small, only a liter capacity (a full liter, not a liter minus the pump itself.), but since the return gets plumbed back in to the surge tank, I think it'll stay pretty full for a street car.



How would you soft mount it in a way that's still captive? The mounts I have are miniature version of redblock motor mounts, and could possibly shear in half.
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Old 03-25-2018, 06:52 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by cwdodson88 View Post
Soft mounted. I noticed a huge difference in buzz.
Nice, soft mounted it is.
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Old 03-25-2018, 06:52 PM   #531
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Wrap it in a Mexican blanket for the stealth approach
Not at all opposed to this.
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Old 03-26-2018, 01:07 AM   #532
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A metal clamp around it that is hard mounted, but a rubber isolator between the band and the tank should keep the NVH down. Think something like the rubber covered harness clamps Volvo used, that kinda concept.
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Old 03-26-2018, 02:27 AM   #533
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The BMW I stripped recently was full of mounts that were like a grommet with a steel tube in the middle. The steel tube was bolted down hard, and the grommet held the sheet steel item between it's outer layers. I CBF going to the garage to photograph one for you, but you could probably do something similar with any thickish rubber grommet just by enlarging the holes in the legs. Here's something similar form an old Holden wiper motor:



https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Holden-W...-/271444472066

It's also similar to the way the stock EFI pumps are mounted in a 740/940 (at least).

With the tube installed, you can't get them off without massive force. With the tube removed, you can easily squish them through the required hole.

You could use both this and the band with rubber isolator in between for double isolation if you really wanted to kill the physically transmitted noise.
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Old 03-26-2018, 09:53 AM   #534
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Good call man!

Tyler...hit up the yards, find a late 9-series, grab the driveshaft center support bearing mounting plate. It's isolated using the same stuff Fred mentioned, should be a nice plate you could mount the tank solid to.
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Old 03-28-2018, 11:51 AM   #535
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It's always something. I removed my intake manifold to easily access fuel rail lines, and to have it powder coated. I noticed cracks where every runner entered the plenum. The cracks were right outside the weld, on the plenum side. I always thought the plenum seemed a bit thin, and I guess that combined with a lack of any bracing made it crack. The fuel system project is slowly progressing, and now I have to address the manifold thing, as well.

This is how the manifold currently sits. I ordered a 3/16" plate that will be the new bottom of the plenum. That way Noah can weld the stacks to the top of the plate, then weld the runners to the bottom. The previous design involved some questionable fitting of the stacks to the plenum. I'm hoping the thicker plate and the addition of some bracing will prevent cracking. Also, does anyone know about post-weld annealing of aluminum?
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Old 03-28-2018, 12:42 PM   #536
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typically normalization post process is done over a pretty long amount of time, and alot of time it distorts the material. But I'm not sure with aluminum. We never run any post process after machining aluminum, but the parts never reach temps high enough to need retreated.

I really wouldnt bee worried about annealing or normalizing the material, it shouldnt work harden much.
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:13 PM   #537
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Does anyone know about post-weld annealing of aluminum?
I have made weldments out of aluminum and also replacement body panels out of 3000 series. You can anneal some alloys of aluminum unscientifically with an oxyacetylene torch by first covering the area to be softened with black soot from an over-rich acetylene flame. Then heat the area with the torch using both fuels until the black soot disappears. At that point you will end up with a soft piece of alloy which may or not work for what you application.

A little research into aluminum grades and filler rod will uncover the ones that are the most weldable, and also resist post-weld cracking could pay off before moving forward.

Learning the proper post-weld heat treating for the alloy would also be a benefit. Check w/heat treaters in the area.

Part of the problem may be caused by engine vibration.

Good luck!
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:47 PM   #538
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Thanks for the input, guys. The problem is definitely caused by vibration. I read a bit about annealing, and saw that acetylene method you mentioned. Seems easy to do the wrong thing and end up with a noodly manifold.

I'll ask some of the engineers at work what they think about heat treating. I always forget that they build aluminum bikes here sometimes...
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Old 03-28-2018, 02:55 PM   #539
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Danger to teh manifold??

Finally, a valid use for that! lol
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Old 03-28-2018, 03:22 PM   #540
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Danger to teh manifold??

Finally, a valid use for that! lol
Ha! Ryan made a solid F&F reference via text yesterday too.
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Old 03-28-2018, 03:40 PM   #541
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Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post
Thanks for the input, guys. The problem is definitely caused by vibration.
A few questions for you to ponder:

1) Have you ever seen an inline engine OEM inlet manifold without a brace to the block?
2) Have you ever seen an inline engine OEM alloy inlet manifold with large flat areas?



2: I haven't, and the cast curves you see are inherently strong and load-distributing - there's no inherent weak point(s)
1: I haven't, and although it's mainly to protect the studs in the head from heavy castings, it could also protect your weak interface from runners to plenum in the same way

How thick was the out-going back plate?

Are you planning to brace triangularly on the under sides of the runners to pick up the bottom wall of the plenum, too?
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Old 03-28-2018, 03:46 PM   #542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeEMSFred View Post
A few questions for you to ponder:

1) Have you ever seen an inline engine OEM inlet manifold without a brace to the block?
2) Have you ever seen an inline engine OEM alloy inlet manifold with large flat areas?



2: I haven't, and the cast curves you see are inherently strong and load-distributing - there's no inherent weak point(s)
1: I haven't, and although it's mainly to protect the studs in the head from heavy castings, it could also protect your weak interface from runners to plenum in the same way

How thick was the out-going back plate?

Are you planning to brace triangularly on the under sides of the runners to pick up the bottom wall of the plenum, too?
Yeah, OEM manifolds always have a brace and far fewer flat areas. I'd like to add gussets from the runner to the plenum, as well as some sort of brace to the block. The outgoing plate was actually the same piece as the rest of the plenum: it was a folded piece, with a welded seam on the bottom. The plenum material is quite thin, around 1/16".

I think that with a thick plate, and the gussets, I'll be in much better shape. I wish my runners were long enough to cut and use silicone couplers to totally isolate the plenum, but they're not.
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Old 04-08-2018, 08:49 PM   #543
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Quick update because I finished the fuel system upgrade.

I have a 50 GPH (At 15 psi. It will be operating at zero, so it should flow more.) Facet pump that will feed the surge tank.

The lines all pass through the floor via -6 bulkhead fittings. They're all 5/16 on the underside of the car.

The tank is mounted above the axle in the trunk, and I made -6 lines for it. I made a bracket that hold the tank and the OEM fuel filter.

That's it for now. Now to fix the intake manifold.
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File Type: jpg Surge-1468.jpg (177.8 KB, 144 views)
File Type: jpg Surge-1487.jpg (163.2 KB, 138 views)
File Type: jpg Surge-1495.jpg (153.1 KB, 138 views)
File Type: jpg Surge-1494.jpg (180.4 KB, 138 views)
File Type: jpg Surge-1499.jpg (159.8 KB, 139 views)
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Old 04-08-2018, 11:42 PM   #544
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That should get the job done!
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Old 04-11-2018, 10:28 AM   #545
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While we're fixing the manifold, a package from Speedhut came in. I replaced the chrome bezels with black to cut down on glare, and got a boost gauge to mount in the GT cluster where I can actually see it. I moved the fuel gauge to that spot on the left, which is where the old VDO boost gauge was.

This should make driving much more enjoyable.
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Old 04-11-2018, 11:42 AM   #546
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That looks fantastic
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Old 04-11-2018, 03:18 PM   #547
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Looks great! I can't wait to see it in a couple weeks. Should be 3 really nice modded 140's this year at least.

Hey, Ryan mentioned you put some Lucas stabilizer in the T5 and it helped. What kind of difference? What fluid did you already have in it?

I have some on the shelf, debating on throwing that in, with the Redline that's in there.
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Old 04-11-2018, 03:59 PM   #548
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Sad I'll miss it

Drive it to IPD?
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Old 04-11-2018, 04:06 PM   #549
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Very nice and detailed work, and well thought out - want to move to the east coast and work in my shop?
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Old 04-11-2018, 04:56 PM   #550
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Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
Looks great! I can't wait to see it in a couple weeks. Should be 3 really nice modded 140's this year at least.

Hey, Ryan mentioned you put some Lucas stabilizer in the T5 and it helped. What kind of difference? What fluid did you already have in it?

I have some on the shelf, debating on throwing that in, with the Redline that's in there.
Well the manifold is still in pieces. Some of those peices are at Noah's to be welded, and some are at my place for me to fit/prep. I really hope to be able to bring it to Davis, but I haven't committed yet...

I had some generic dex/merc in my T5, and then added about .4 quarts of the stabilizer. It seemed to help the noise, but mostly just while it's cold. When it warms up it's still pretty loud. It definitely adversely affected shifting. I'd be hesitant to use it again for noise.
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