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Old 11-03-2008, 07:03 AM   #1
RetroSport
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Default B234 N/A 2.5L Engine, build help wanted

I am building a B234 N/A 2.5l engine for a 242 Rally car.

I know there is easy power to be had from a turbo, but the lag will kill me, specially on the loose stages. So N/A it is.

I am looking for experienced advice about the build, especially in relation to what parts to use, and where to source them. e.g. what crank, what bearings, who makes cams etc etc

Know I will be needing steel crank, rods & pistons, good rally cam, so want to know where to source them. Wherever they are in the world.

BHp over 250 is good, but MASSES of torque is better.

Am considering using a Ford T5 gearbox from a Cosworth.

Also looking for other parts such as lightwieght panels, LSD, diff 4.9:1-ish crown wheel and pinion, etc etc.

Looking forward to you guys helping.
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Old 11-03-2008, 07:23 AM   #2
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well just get a penta aq171, and put extractors and a fuel injection systom on it, and port and polish it, and you should have come close to 200.

the penta engine stock has 170hp, and it already is a larger engine and the b234, has larger cams, and better performing intake manifold (as far as I know).

for cams, since your already in europ, I'd go to enem http://www.enem.se/kamaxlar.asp but the catcam has a slightly better profile, but probably suted more to turbo http://www.catcams.be/

so custom up an intake and exhaust, p&p, cams, fuel and ignition systoms, and 2.5-3" exhaust and free flowing air filter. I'm not overly sure on how possable 250 na hp is but still have a massive amount of taque (but then again I've never tryed) (have you thaught of supercharger? lol)
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Old 11-03-2008, 07:29 AM   #3
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250 HP, masses of torque, and N/A are three mutually exclusive words.

you can build a 250 hp turbo car extremely easily that does have masses of torque and no lag.
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Old 11-03-2008, 07:39 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 740Weapon View Post
250 HP, masses of torque, and N/A are three mutually exclusive words.

you can build a 250 hp turbo car extremely easily that does have masses of torque and no lag.
turbo, no lag are two mutually exclusive words (ones technicaly a phrase), unless you spend out your non-eating whole for an antilag systom :P

a turbo may spool fast, but when reflexes are masivly hinderd on a soft dirt road and added onto that about half a second for a turbo to kick in, its quite untollerable, unless you've learnt to rally in a turbo car
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Old 11-03-2008, 07:47 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by aussyvolvo View Post
turbo, no lag are two mutually exclusive words (ones technicaly a phrase), unless you spend out your non-eating whole for an antilag systom :P

a turbo may spool fast, but when reflexes are masivly hinderd on a soft dirt road and added onto that about half a second for a turbo to kick in, its quite untollerable, unless you've learnt to rally in a turbo car
above about 4000 RPMs a 15g essentially follows the gas pedal. if i were to guess, a 250 hp n/a motor wont 'work' below about 4000 rpms anway. so its either the RPM lag if you let the n/a motor dip below 4000 or the turbo lag if you let the boosted motor drop below about 4000. so no matter what your driving with 3 feet.

i say its a even toss of compromises... except that the n/a motor will cost more. i suppose rally folk can chime in here at any point.
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Old 11-03-2008, 07:47 AM   #6
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brick w/out a turbo? I don't approve.
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Old 11-03-2008, 01:21 PM   #7
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I think the penta crank from about 1992+ would be wanted to get a forged crank and 2.5l
I would stick to later than 1992 to get compatible parts (ie crank / block / rods /pistons etc)
Pistons would depend on what you do n/a or turbo and what compression ratio you want to run. The std Penta pistons might be ok for N/A but might be too higher compression ratio for turbo unless you can use good fuel. I do not know how they will survive flat out for a long while. Foggy James might know. I think he is doing a B230FB based engine for rallying.
The 6mm longer stroke of the Penta crank would mean you would need 3mm shorter rods to run B230FT pistons to get the compression down or custom pistons on std rods. With the 16 valve head you would need valve reliefs in the pistons too.

An M90 gearbox might be strong enough but the standard ratios would be pants for circuit racing, probably pants for rallying too. 1st is for pulling trees out and top is for motorway cruising. 2nd 3rd, 4th are evenly spread between those extremes so not at all close ratio.

I am building up a Penta based engine (8 valve) myself but this is just overkill to get a reliable engine with boosting to about 12PSI. I am thinking of using standard B230FT pistons and getting 3mm shorter rods to make it all fit.

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Old 11-03-2008, 01:39 PM   #8
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the rods are the same between all late model redblocks , its the pistons that change the compression height .

youd be wise to overbore it or at least go for 2.7L , the 16v engine doesnt really get on it until 4krpm , at which point , if youre only looking for 250 hp , a MLPT engine with a 15g would be exactly what to build , theres no waiting for boost at the higher rpm .

youll be into new valve springs , cams , high comp pistons etc etc , for elevating the rpms , then you have to think about the gearing too .

have a look on Mr Parners site to get an idea of what youll realistically need .
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Old 11-24-2008, 09:41 AM   #9
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Have bought a 740GT, so now got my 16V engine. Think I am going to get a cam made by Kent. Everyone says that the crank will be strong enough for the 250BHP.

Am having discussion about a 2.5 turn quick rack (non power steer) that will still allow me the lock, will use electric power steering. Using the power steering pulley for dry sump. If anyone else is interested drop me a note.

Cage nearly done, 4-bar link in, rear turrets in, shell welded, Watts linkage from Atlas/Capri axle being modified, converting to R.H. drive.

Looks like the LSD and C.W.&P. might HAVE to come from Sweden. Head will prob need work and bigger valves, also looking for a N/A inlet and exhaust manifolds for the engine.
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Old 11-24-2008, 12:37 PM   #10
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john lane has no problem with turbo in his rally car. Btw I had like no lag with a .42/.48 t3 on my b234. Anything over 2k was instant boost.
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Old 11-24-2008, 12:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RetroSport View Post
Have bought a 740GT, so now got my 16V engine. Think I am going to get a cam made by Kent. Everyone says that the crank will be strong enough for the 250BHP.

Am having discussion about a 2.5 turn quick rack (non power steer) that will still allow me the lock, will use electric power steering. Using the power steering pulley for dry sump. If anyone else is interested drop me a note.

Cage nearly done, 4-bar link in, rear turrets in, shell welded, Watts linkage from Atlas/Capri axle being modified, converting to R.H. drive.

Looks like the LSD and C.W.&P. might HAVE to come from Sweden. Head will prob need work and bigger valves, also looking for a N/A inlet and exhaust manifolds for the engine.

Listen, 15 years ago 235 bhp and buckets of torque were the norm in GpH in Sweden.
That's with 2300s and 8 valves and max about 7000 rpm.

KEEP THE stock crank and stroke. And save the money you'd waste on a 2.5 crank for later.

Torque is in essence a function of a) engine volume times b) actual compression ratio.

Want more toque? More compression ratio. And the 16v combustion chamber with that central, compact chamber and spark plug where it is is ideal for making high compression without detonation.

That ain't enough?

Then go shorter final drive.

What the engine doesn't make for torque, the final drive will.
What final drive ratio you thinking?

(Should say I've seen plenty of Scottish stages over the last 25 years, and visited some BTRDA events just over the border.)

As for valve sizes, do the areas, they're already more than 20% more area than an 8v and as important, no MORE importantly, the ports are approaching the valve with a nice angle, so flow with stock is fine, again, save your money. The only work the head needs is easy cleaning up the valve pockets ans short side radius work, and fresh.
Again save money for later.

What GEARSET you planning on (This is where there's no real substitute on a normal aspirated. And this is where I've been saying save your money for..) The gearset's ratios will detirmine how radical you can make the powerband.
With a standard 2wd Cossie T5 I wouldn't want to go shorter than 4.3 to 4.5:1 MAX. So if you want that thing to go, you're gonna want to think about around 5.1 and that makes first gear so short it's useless 'cept driving on and off the trailer.

A guy called "Gearboxman" down in Bedfordshire across the M1 from Luton makes--has made-- nice close ratio gearsets for the T5 in either dog engagement or synchro---and since a close ratio synchro shifts fast, I'd go synchro myself in my rallly cars---wait I did!

So the question is how are you going to get yout STATIC COMPRESSION up to the high 11s or low 12:1 range so you have some compression left to make a good POP! to make some torque?
Here's some nice forged CP pistons in a NA Cossie YB rally motor I built:



Heres the fun cams which were from Kent:


Here's the rods I used, made them 6mm longer than original to get s piston 6mm shorter and lighter, but this motor was a crazy 9500 motor.
Here's the whole thing, these should be your target and should be OK caust the Volvo is strong as hell and 300cc bigger-and Can be with bore alone even bigger:



You know your hydraulic cam followers are only good to about a smidge over 7000 dont you?

And since you asked, I'd say sure if the rules allow do the 16v, but personally I prefer the B23 bottom end with a forged steel crank you know you never have to worry about. EVER.
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Old 11-25-2008, 06:18 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 740Weapon View Post
250 HP, masses of torque, and N/A are three mutually exclusive words.
Not really. Maybe it won't have that lazy, "pull like a train from no revs with only a small throttle opening" feel of a big V8, but in a competitive environment, you can easily build a big power NA motor to have lots of grunt down low in the rev range.

Turbos are an awesome way to get power from a motor, and usually its at (relatively) bargain-basement prices, but in a rally environment, they're a mixed blessing due the the multi-dimensional throttle response.
Where a NA motor's instantaneous power output is determined almost exclusvely by the number of revs and the throttle opening (ie: 2-dimensional), a turbo motor is greatly influenced by the load on the motor. And that third variable is much harder for the driver to instinctively know, which makes life heaps harder when trying to drive as fast as possible over an unknown road with limited traction.
If everythng else was kept equal (power, weight, etc), I doubt that you'd find a single rally (or even race) driver who'd prefer to drive a turbo car over a NA one - and remarkably often, you'll find that they'd be willing to fosake a fair bit of peak power to obtain better drivability.

From my local rally forum:
http://www.bmsc.com.au/forums/rallyi...ique-rear.html

/ot
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Old 11-25-2008, 09:28 AM   #13
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Being British you'll have no problem getting solid lifters to fit the B234. Look for the Renault 1700 engine as found in countless Renaults and Volvo 340 and 440's. They fit perfectly. I'll be very interested in Kent's response to a request for cams.

For about £600 you can get decent cams from Catcams or Enem, by the way.
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:18 PM   #14
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Being British you'll have no problem getting solid lifters to fit the B234. Look for the Renault 1700 engine as found in countless Renaults and Volvo 340 and 440's. They fit perfectly. I'll be very interested in Kent's response to a request for cams.

For about £600 you can get decent cams from Catcams or Enem, by the way.
For less than half that you can get some nasty cams from the NW corner of USA.
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:56 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spac View Post
Not really. Maybe it won't have that lazy, "pull like a train from no revs with only a small throttle opening" feel of a big V8,
Which in practice usually results in a car moving downwards as the tires dig holes, not forwards.

Quote:
but in a competitive environment, you can easily build a big power NA motor to have lots of grunt down low in the rev range.
Key thing is to define terms. "power" is kinda vague; TORQUE is not.
"low down" to one person is 1200rpm, to the next its 3500 and to all the cracker Tbrickers constantly warning others that a certain turbo will "hurt high rpm power" obviously low down to these guys is 5-6,000.

Quote:
Turbos are an awesome way to get power from a motor, and usually its at (relatively) bargain-basement prices, but in a rally environment, they're a mixed blessing due the the multi-dimensional throttle response.
Yep and since 1981 oddly almost nobody has bothered to use a turbo in a rally car, eh?

Quote:
Where a NA motor's instantaneous power output is determined almost exclusvely by the number of revs and the throttle opening (ie: 2-dimensional), a turbo motor is greatly influenced by the load on the motor. And that third variable is much harder for the driver to instinctively know, which makes life heaps harder when trying to drive as fast as possible over an unknown road with limited traction
.

There's the thing, with a turbo when we cram a bunch more into into the motor I say one way to look at what we'ze doing is were making a 2,3 into a--presuming one BAR boost----into a 4.6. A big mild, easy to drive TORQUEY 4.6.
IF and this is the big if, IF we don't go crazy just because we can, we can have a turbo which begins to makes decent PSI at mid to hi 2000s and IF WE HAVE MORE TORQUE, then the car is easier to drive period. Easier to drive slow, easier to drive fast.

The earliest versions of the Gp4 Quattros back in '81-82 had maybe 3 BHP more than the baddest BDG Escorts, they ran away because the had 3 times the TORQUE--and as vile handling pigs they were, and as crude and horrible as the early Quattro 4wd junk was, that 4wd put fair amounts of that torque down.
Quote:


If everythng else was kept equal (power,!!!Powa! What Power? weight, etc), I doubt that you'd find a single rally (or even race) driver who'd prefer to drive a turbo car over a NA one - and remarkably often, you'll find that they'd be willing to fosake a fair bit of peak power to obtain better drivability.
Wait! I'm a , well I was a rally driver and I have a sort high hp fwd car and a sorta high bhp turbo 4wd one, and I don't know if you've noticed but a push guys very hard toward two cars Volvo 240 and Ford Sierra (known in USA and Canada as Merkur XR4Ti or more easily "Xratty") both with 2,3 8v turbos.
I push the exact same Garret turbo: Garret T3 for a Ford Cosworth. This makes for a very responsive turbo which oddly enough we see only as OEM on a car which was openly conceded an FIA Homologation special. The Lancia Delta Intergrale, another purpose built homologation special used the essentially indentical TB0356.

So a 2300 with one of these turbos and with a simple T5 as found on Ford Sierra Cosworth
and a little shorter final drive, 4.3 to maybe 4.56 (if its hilly and some Scottish rallies have some hills) this does make an easy motor, with a powerband that suits the gaps in the box so no falling on the face on shifts even on climbs----so boost is maintained--and with an EASY motor, you have an easier job to do---watch the road, the surface and those treelines.

Normal aspirated, even rad motors are fun! If you have a decent set of ratios.

But they are frustrating as hell if the motor drops down on shifts into a rev rang way below where its happy.

The 2300 Ford and Volvos with a Cossie T3 and a BorgWarner T5 (from the right car) will pull and the ratios are fine.


Notice I didn't speak of max BHP?
with just 2wd peak power isn't vital on gravel, power delivery is.

Did this guy ask about turbos?
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Old 11-25-2008, 01:19 PM   #16
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For less than half that you can get some nasty cams from the NW corner of USA.
Tell us more.............
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Old 03-18-2012, 03:28 AM   #17
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ive know idea of the rules over there? but it sounds like a good b234 with a blower from a asian diesel {toyota} would suit your specs. low power,quick responce and 300hp without engine problems, 8:1 comp and 4 bar blowoff. give it some consideration? blowers have progressed since most folk have been playing with turbos .
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Old 03-18-2012, 02:49 PM   #18
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Some good advice on this thread http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=249791 hth. Cat cams,AGAP,Folkrace (sp) all make cams for the 16 valve.
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