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Old 09-15-2020, 01:49 PM   #1
aharres
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Default To lock, or to limit the slip?

Hello everyone. I'd like to get some of your feedback on a g80 vs the wavetrac for a high performance street application.



My suspension setup is bone stock save for a factory 23mm front and 21mm rear anti-roll bar setup. I have enkei 14x6 inch wheels with 215/70R14 cooper cobra radial g/t tires. I'm going to be experimenting with softer rear bars to see what it does to the rear grip.



My plans as far as power are to build a hot n/a B230F which will likely never exceed 200 hp unless I get really ambitious :^)



The g80 seems great for having fun launching the car and doing some low speed sliding. However, I also enjoy sending my car into hard turns at anywhere from 30 mph to 60 mph and I'm not sure if an effectively open diff will allow me to put the power down coming out of the turn.


I would love to go out and do some testing, but it's hard to tell with the bone stock b230f since I can barely break traction anyway.


What do you guys think? If some simple suspension tuning and adjustment of my driving style can mean effectively putting power down in hard 30-60 mph turns, then I think I'd be happy with the g80 and the money saved.
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Old 09-15-2020, 01:57 PM   #2
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Remove the governor function on the G80 and it will work great for what you want to do. The G80 is a hybrid design and doesn't really lock. It is a clutch type limited slip unit that acts like an open differential until it engages and clamps down on the friction discs. No pre-load like other clutch type limited slip units.
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Old 09-15-2020, 02:04 PM   #3
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Yeah, it locks OPEN in some situations vs. locking. When it's not locked open it's using clutch packs like a regular LSD.

It has two different spring-weight gixmos that control the locking:
1) The one that spins based on relative differences left to right - IIRC once they get to around 100 RPM difference it will allow the LSD function to engage
2) The flyweight mentioned above that measures the rotation of the diff itself - above roughly 25 MPH it engages and prevents the diff from engaging. You can cut this flyweight off and it won't ever engage and lock out

FWIW I put a well used (190K miles??? I can't remember) junkyard G80 in my 240, and while it's certainly functioning as designed (you can jack it up and spin the rear wheel, it acts like a normal open diff until you spin it hard enough and *LOCK* it engages. I can't turn it by hand at that point, but on the road it def slips. Going around a tight low-speed corner and give it some throttle and the inside tire will spin without the outside one spinning. But it transfers enough torque to make 2 black marks on straight, flat pavement.
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Old 09-15-2020, 02:10 PM   #4
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From what I have read the flyweight locks out the engagement above 35 mph. The modified G80 Greg Ervin runs in his 740 Autocross car does not lock out at any speed.
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Old 09-15-2020, 02:15 PM   #5
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ANd it's a pretty easy mod to make on the G80 - no real disassembly required. Well, I'm not sure if you can do it with the diff still in the axle housing or not.
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Old 09-15-2020, 02:54 PM   #6
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G80 diffs work ok, but a proper LSD is a huge upgrade.
My biggest complaint with the G80 was the inconsistency with open vs lock when driven hard. This only gets worse as they wear out. Long sweeping corners were the worst ones. 85mph sweeper, apply throttle, any wheelspin means diff goes full lock, car then goes sideways. Fun-ish on a race track, not fun on the street at legal speeds.
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Old 09-15-2020, 03:28 PM   #7
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Sir Culberboner,

That's exactly what I'm worried about with the G80. I'd rather not have an incident because my diff unexpectedly locked up. I'm imagining a dark and stormy night... This car is intended to be my daily driver although I plan on entering it into some autocross events for fun.

I'm not sure why, but it seems like the truetrac is nearly $600 at this point. Makes it not quite worth it especially considering it'll be nearly useless on hairpins where my inside rear wheel unloads almost completely.
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Old 09-15-2020, 03:31 PM   #8
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I guess when not locked out, a nice fresh G80 (acts like it) has a lot of preload.

Mine's just always been soft and easy, but probably just because it's half worn out.
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Old 09-15-2020, 03:37 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
G80 diffs work ok, but a proper LSD is a huge upgrade.
My biggest complaint with the G80 was the inconsistency with open vs lock when driven hard. This only gets worse as they wear out. Long sweeping corners were the worst ones. 85mph sweeper, apply throttle, any wheelspin means diff goes full lock, car then goes sideways. Fun-ish on a race track, not fun on the street at legal speeds.
It just depends on what you are used to and your style of driving. A regular clutch type limited slip is definitely more predictable. I like the Torsen differentials the best. My GT has one and is totally predictable. The 99 Z28 I used to Autocross also had a Torsen in it.
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Old 09-15-2020, 03:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aharres View Post
Sir Culberboner,

That's exactly what I'm worried about with the G80. I'd rather not have an incident because my diff unexpectedly locked up. I'm imagining a dark and stormy night... This car is intended to be my daily driver although I plan on entering it into some autocross events for fun.

I'm not sure why, but it seems like the truetrac is nearly $600 at this point. Makes it not quite worth it especially considering it'll be nearly useless on hairpins where my inside rear wheel unloads almost completely.
With the truetrac getting close to $600, I'd just spend the extra money on something better.

If you have the funds to spend on a $1000-1300 diff, go for it.
Gripper makes a great clutch type LSD.
https://gripperlsd.com/product/volvo-all-rwd-models/

The wave track looks like a nice Torsen with a built in locker. I haven't driven a car with one, so I can't really comment on what they are like.
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Old 09-15-2020, 04:25 PM   #11
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That gripper looks very nice and the variety of preset configurations are great. It is a good bit more expensive than the wavetrac and I don't see myself benefiting from the gripper over the wavetrac. Once ben has the wavetracs back in stock, I believe they will be on sale for $800.
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Old 09-15-2020, 06:12 PM   #12
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After reading culberro’s post I have to agree with him. I’m used to driving cars sideways, therefore, for me, the sudden lock is not an issue. When Autocrossing we would force the G80 to lock right at the beginning of the turn with a sudden throttle blip. Then, it would stay locked through the entire turn. It is a bit tricky to drive really fast with one without a lot of experience.
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Old 09-15-2020, 06:22 PM   #13
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G80:
Bend the spring on the flyweight weight/mod it to 'basically always locked/locks with minimal difference at low speeds?'
Great for pulling out of your snowy/gravel driveway/ way better than nothing, no special oil required, doesn't generate a lot of heat/wear out the oil as fast, allows you to use your donut spare tire.
Doesn't twist off your axle splines/cushions things a bit more than welded/spool/maybe save your suspension bushings or tires on pavement/make the car movable?
Should be fine for straight line stuff too, obviously.

Interesting engineering mechanical compromise/no electronics
Works real nice in the front of a jeep that's mild/for slushy stuff where the D30 would break regardless for outright boulder crawling?
As culberro sez, for higher speeds/consistency required, don't care for it so much as a performance application thing.
But DD/crawl out of your slushy gravel driveway/job sites, sure/doesn't hurt?

Clutch LSD is real nice, but forged cross shafts to make them viable and some way to deal with the heat and keep both tires exactly the same diameter is another thing to worry about/potentially break/wear item that requires adjustment/inspection.

The Torsens aren't junk, just don't care for them/not my thing.
There are fancier torsens like the wavetrac that probably are decent, but not exactly cheap. Bolt-in yes though!

Rather loosen up the clutch LSD for snow (but no rock crawling)/different courses or have it be basically welded once you get on the gas at all for pavement & have the option.

Everyone laughed at me (with some justification IMO) when I had the 4-pinion clutch LSD in the back of the ford, D60 power-lock front & lockable center.
I was like 'what, I don't crawl over boulders, I just want to get out of my snowy/icy driveway predictably!"
Air or e-lockers would be less fussy/lower wear though, just expensive/weren't popular/period correct k@@l-@id for a 1978 truck.
Less to go wrong/low speed/precise handling not a concern there.
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Old 09-15-2020, 06:23 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
After reading culberro’s post I have to agree with him. I’m used to driving cars sideways, therefore, for me, the sudden lock is not an issue. When Autocrossing we would force the G80 to lock right at the beginning of the turn with a sudden throttle blip. Then, it would stay locked through the entire turn. It is a bit tricky to drive really fast with one without a lot of experience.
They're fine most of the time, but at ORP in long sweepers mine would lock/un-lock. Not what I would want in a performance setting.
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Old 09-15-2020, 06:30 PM   #15
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We had to actually think about what we were doing in order to make it drive correctly. You don’t need that extra element to pay attention to. With my Torsen differential I just drive the car.
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Old 09-15-2020, 06:34 PM   #16
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Culberbone put it best though; straight line / pull out of your ditch/slushy driveway:?
G80s fine/cheap/easy/good engineering compromise for what it is.

Expecting higher speed predictability and ridiculous multi-surface rally abuse, not-so-much/more likely to kill you maybe?
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Old 09-15-2020, 06:39 PM   #17
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Exactly. My brain switches back-and-forth from TB cheap bastid to real world ideal situations. In the real world of high performance driving you want a proper clutch type limited slip or Toreson differential. My GT is so seamless it can be driven “near” its limit almost immediately. It’s limit is set so high it will take me years to get to that point.
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Old 09-15-2020, 07:11 PM   #18
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Makes me want to look into a Torsen diff for my Ford 8.8 before it goes on the car.
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Old 09-15-2020, 07:47 PM   #19
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I was of the impression that volvo g80 was the same as GM RPO G80. They look the same. GM has teeth, no clutches. You did NOT want to put friction modifier in one, and correct me if i’m wrong, but volvo is the same. They sure act the same.
I have one on the shelf, i can look inside. And i can do a breakaway torque test on it in a car. My bet is once it locks there is zero slip.
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Old 09-15-2020, 07:50 PM   #20
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No, they are a clutch unit that is simply spring loaded. IOW, they don’t lock harder with more power applied to them the way most clutch limited slip units do.

Take a look here. There is a disassembled G 80 and you can see the clutch plates in the picture.

http://www.turbobricks.com/mods.php?content=art0027
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Old 09-15-2020, 08:28 PM   #21
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I was going to get the wavetrac, but there are a lot of really bad reviews out there, and it is pretty expensive.
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Old 09-16-2020, 09:00 AM   #22
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I saw some 10 year old posts on the honda forums of people saying their axle shafts got stuck in the diff and that wavetrac supposedly fixed the issue. The only other negative thing I read were some porsche racing forums where they said the diff doesn't lock up well on trailing throttle and under heavy braking. The porsche 911 is a completely different beast though and this was in the context of track racing. The autocross guys were saying the wavetrac is great. I seriously doubt the wavetrac will be limiting me in any way
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Old 09-16-2020, 09:04 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by JohnMc View Post
Makes me want to look into a Torsen diff for my Ford 8.8 before it goes on the car.
I put the 2004 Cobra clutch packs and Z spring in my 8.8, works pretty well. I just posted in the autocross thread in showroom. You can get the kit from Summit/Jegs , directions with the kit call for 2 pints of Ford additive. I got a whole handful of 3oz bottles from the dealer but I don't think I put in the whole 2 pints. That stuff stinks like crazy too, someone told me it has whale oil, not sure if that's true or not.

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Old 09-16-2020, 01:19 PM   #24
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I haven't sold a ton of wavetracs over the years but I do offer them and think they are a good product when used for their intended purpose and understanding the pro's and con's of them.

At the end of the day, they are a high quality torsen diff with an extra trick. The trick does work but in extreme applications, you can still have a 0 load situation.

For a street car, IMO, its the way to go. Theres no maintenance, they are quiet, easy on the fluids.

For a race car, a clutch type is better suited to work in an extremely range of conditions including ****ty suspension setup but they can be loud, need frequent fluid changes, and require to be torn into and refreshed every now and then.

In a race car, the wavetrac helps point a magnifying glass at your setup problems and if you can work through sorting them... you will end up with a faster and better car.

Clutch diffs are nice because they can be a great bandaid to a poorly setup suspension.

If your car is lifting a rear inner wheel in a corner because the roll axis inclination angle is too steep or you have binding in your suspension due to bad bushings, an oversized rear sway bar, or both... The wavetrac wont perform as well as a clutch diff will.
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Old 09-16-2020, 01:51 PM   #25
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Thanks for the input Ben.

As for lifting the rear inner wheel, I'm not sure how much of a problem it is for my car at speed. Doing fast u-turns on the street, my car will definitely unload the rear inner wheel enough that I can't put any power down until I begin straightening up the wheel. Softening the rear bar would definitely help me here, but I'm also really enjoying how the car is handling with the 21mm rear bar.

So let's take the fast u-turn case: in the middle of the turn when my rear inner wheel is unloaded, can I stab the throttle and get the rear end to kick around for a fun little power slide on exit?

It seems to me that in this scenario, the wave device will engage and allow me to have my fun whereas a plain torsen won't be able to do much until I begin straightening the wheel.
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